If Shan’ann was in financial difficulty previously [and she was], the solution seemed to be fairly simple. Move someone in and scrimp. She did this in 2015 when they went bankrupt. She moved in her parents for 15-16 months. Presumably this “saved” money in child care fees, and by pooling resources, food and meals could be cheaper when the expenses were shared by four rather than one or two.
How would you like to live with both your in-laws for over a year?
When Shan’ann had neck surgery, Cristina Meacham came to stay for two months in 2017.
So in 2018, when they were scraping the bottom of the barrel again, there was an easy solution in the offing. Do what she’d always done. Move someone in and piggyback until things improved.
That someone turned out to be Josh and Cassie Rosenberg, just another family of Thrivers [a mom and pop team, and their kids], who could pool their resources. This plan wasn’t just theoretical. We know this because on Saturday night [August 11] when Watts was wining, dining and [doing other things] with Nichol Kessinger, Josh Rosenberg sent Watts a text to ask if everything was okay – could they still come and stay at the house.
Josh had good reason to be uncertain if the plan was still in the offing, He knew because Cassie knew that Watts and his wife were arguing. If they arguing, where did it leave them?
Watts didn’t respond to Josh until the next morning – Sunday [August 12] – and when he did he said it was cool [even though it wasn’t cool at all]. Watts said they could move in, but wanted to know when.
Watts then lied to Josh about something else – he pretended he knew what it was like at the Rockies game.
It’s important to see the texts between Shan’ann and her pals Nickole and Cassie in context to get a real sense for how the idea of moving in with Shan’ann [to provide support, perhaps help pay the bills and take care of the kids] came about.
It’s clear – and to some extent understandable – that Shan’ann, Nickole and Cassie had formed a formidable alliance of three, and they meant business. Fuck him was the general theme of it. Fuck him and take the house. Even though the house was in Watts’ name, they figured they could sort of bully their way into it and taking charge, and at the very least, taking the kids and getting half of what the house was worth.
Fuck him!
Perhaps under normal circumstances Watts would have crumbled and turned the house over to his wife and whoever she wanted to stay over/rent/cohabit or whatever. But these weren’t normal circumstances. This situation this time around definitely wasn’t going to work for him and his mistress.
The red arrows and circles in some of the final texts below point out specifics of the conversation to move in to casa Watts, and also how Weld County deals with alimony and splitting the house, even if it is in the husband’s name.
“I have enough to worry about with the world out there I’m not going to worry about family. I will just remove it.”
These images are of a for sale sign on the lawn of the Trinastich residence. It’s also possible if the for sale sign was on the lawn during the six weeks Shan’ann was away, Watts could have been nudged – almost on a daily basis – to contemplate whether he could keep his home. And we know where that calculus took him, once he took time to do the math.
Below is Shan’ann’s final ever message on her phone:
On iPhones do text messages and WhatsApps [or messages via the internet] appear on the same screen? If so, then why did Watts’ message at 07:40 not appear on Shan’ann’s phone? Could it be because the phone was off, or because the router wasn’t connected, or is there another explanation?
Still have to read through the rest of the texts, but regarding this part of your thorough post:
***”It’s clear – and to some extent understandable – that Shan’ann, Nickole and Cassie had formed a formidable alliance of three, and they meant business. Fuck him was the general theme of it. Fuck him and take the house. Even though the house was in Watts’ name, they figured they could sort of bully their way into it and taking charge, and at the very least, taking the kids and getting half of what the house was worth.
Fuck him!”***
It’s extremely offensive to me, that after years of hard work, being faithful in his financial dealings and loyal in his marriage; waking up at 4 am to work all day, doing all the laundry, bathing the children and reading bedtime stories; having put up with the Thrive nonsense and Facebook foolishness; having watched Shannan overspend and run their finances into the ground with her delusions of grandeur——————–
That it should come to this! Fuck him. This is not a moral or reasonable position.
@CBH What planet are you from? CW had been cheating on her for years with both women AND men! Give me a damn break. He was a deviant and depraved man child!
He had been cheating ‘for years’, that’s crap
It’s an uncertainty. He said they had had communication issues their entire marriage.
CBH is a valued and insightful commenter here. He’s very spot on with his assessment of things. Shanann was a con artist and scammer, constantly robbing Peter to pay Paul. Nobody’s “victim blaming” but to act as if she wasn’t the main proponent of why he did what he did, to act as if she didn’t have agency in her own life, that’s just garbage and completely uninformed nonsense. Nobody’s excusing what he did however how he stayed married to a lazy, conniving spend thirt who put him down all those years, it’s just mind boggling.
This is a woman who thought she was so entitled to what she wanted that she embezzled money from a company and tried to flee rather than face up to it. She would become indignant if you suggested she stop spending so much, and she blew thousands on multiple garbage MLMs. Wishful thinking at its worst.
To call him a deviant, a man child.. if you really believe that then why was she so desperate to hang on to such a horrible man like that? Truth is she needed him and he didn’t need or want her, she couldn’t even make minimum wage with her Thrive job and the tax returns prove he was always the bread winner. Shanann came with an empty bank account, a mortgage underwater (from the NC home she couldn’t afford, it was sold at short sale, her and her parents paid the down payment and she got that money from embezzling, ill link the court documents if you’d like) bad credit and no job skills. She was about to be half a million in debt, divorced for the second time, and “thriving” with 3 kids living in her parents basement.
Don’t like cheaters? That’s fine as well but don’t forget Shanann cheated on her first husband with Chris, yet I barely hear your type bring that up.
Excellent analysis.
I cannot tell you how much I agree with you. I don’t excuse what Chris did, by no means. He is a despicable human being. But I do think that shanann Watts was a domineering, controlling… Well, she was a bitch. Sorry, but it’s true. The thing that makes me the angriest about Shannan’s Behavior was when she was visiting her In-laws in North Carolina….
She knew she was going to have to stay there, so she was already coming up with some kind of a plan to have an altercation with them. The entire pistachio ice cream incident is mind-boggling to me. Shanann actually accused her mother-in-law of trying to kill little Bella and CeCe by giving them pistachio ice cream? That’s not even what happened. Was another granddaughter that was visiting that day that help yourself to some pistachio ice cream and Bella and CeCe wanted some and we’re told no because of their tree nut…. “Allergies.”..( I use that word in quotation marks because I don’t believe they were allergic to tree nuts at all.) Do you know why? Because there’s something that a lot of people haven’t realized. Shanann Watts, on all of her Facebook live videos when she was promoting Thrive, and while using her daughters as little “taste testers”…. failed to notice that some of those Thrive bars contained coconut oil. Tree nut oil…
Especially the lemon bars that Bella and CeCe loved so much. Look at the ingredients. They contained coconut extract. Shanann was full of crap about her daughter’s allergies, in my opinion.. I sometimes wonder if shanann had munchausen’s, but I’m not sure. I’m not a doctor.
And then to make things worse, after the entire blow up at her in-laws house, shanann put up a vulgar and nasty Facebook post about her mother-in-law. SMH. If you ask me, shanann was going to find anything, and I do mean anything to try and use to alienate her in-laws from her life. And accusing her mother-in-law trying to kill, (lol) her daughter’s via pistachio ice cream. LMAO. Come on! Shanann Watts actually thought that she had the right to dictate what people were allowed to have in THEIR OWN homes when she decided to Grace them with her presence…..
And that really does make my blood boil. Here’s the thing, if your kid is allergic to something, genuinely allergic to it, I feel its YOUR job as the PARENT to make sure the child doesn’t come into contact with that item, no? I mean—- you certainly don’t dictate to people that are gracious enough to have you as a guest in their home , as to what products they are allowed to have in their home!!!!!
Fucksake.
As I said, don’t get me wrong. Shanann Watts did not deserve to die. And those little girls oh, those sweet trusting little girls absolutely did not deserve their fate. But I just get irritated when I hear so many people talking about Shanann being some amazing wife and mother…. And she might have been, in the beginning. But towards the end I think she just wanted her way, as she was used to getting it, and finally when Chris started to stand up for himself, well, she didn’t like it. Especially when shannan wanted to alienate him from his family, over the ridiculous “nutgate” incident…And Chris finally pushed back by telling her: “NO.” That was a word shanann Watts was not used to hearing from Chris. She wanted her way, regarding his family being pushed out of their lives for good. Even though she thought nothing of having HER family, her pushy and controlling family (namely her loudmouth mother Sandy) move into their house for 15 months! And she couldn’t even get along with her mother, cuz that whole arrangement ended very badly with Sandy and Shanann having a humongous fight the night that Sandy went back in North Carolina a year prior to the murders.
Smh.
This whole nightmare could have been avoided had Chris had the balls to stand up to his wife in the beginning. If you ask me, I think the and little baby Nico are the biggest tragedy of all.
Okay, I’m sorry. I vented enough I guess.
Amen sister. I agree with you completely!
I agree with you …except for the coconut oil part. Generally speaking, coconut oil although considered a tree nut, is not actually an allergen to people with tree nut allergies. I looked it up because she was feeding it to them all the time.
That sums it all up! I do not any way condone what CW did to SW or the beautiful girls but I can certainly understand why he cheated and wanted out and away from SW
What a control freak and she did nothing to support him emotionally at all. I believe CW is a true victim as well.
I hate how everyone has to say they don’t approve of the murders. Of course we don’t. But it’s hard to approve of their family dynamics. He was just a paycheck. He should have taken the kids and left long ago.
I completely agree!! And yes, cw was a victim as well. Though obviously he shouldn’t have done what he did.
well i think he lost it cause there was plenty of peop;e in and out.\
he dislike all the people that lived there plus they were taking advantage. so he didnt wan t to be around these people anymore. so
he went out the marrige to the other bimbo who knw he was married regardless. she took advantage too at least tried to.
so living in chaos and brought him confusion . he will be happier in prison he will have a routine and he will sell his story to any tom dick and harry afterall he was broke now he is rich..oh well
And this is the problem with most women. Infidelity is one of a laundry list of issues that’ll tear a marriage apart. Why does one get highlighted moreso than any other. Don’t know about now but the #1 issue that dissolves marriages is normally money. Was CW wrong for cheating, of course! And nothing justifies what he ultimately does in the end. However, obviously CWs desire to seek affection elsewhere was fueled by something in the marriage. SW had her on bag of issues that she was struggling with as well that had nothing to do with CW…. Was she a deviant and a depraved woman child??? Hardly.
There’s two sides to every story and it would be nice if the Watts marriage was an open book and both alive to give a better understanding at what was going on but sadly that’s not the case. However what’s also sad is people like you quick to judge and you clearly have no idea what you’re talking about.
Excellent Analysis.
I meant for CBH.
Thanks, Shannon.
When the authorities questioned him and were playing good cop he said to Chris that he was doing all the cooking and laundry and Chris corrected him that he wasn’t always doing it. There was a video of Chris and shan’ann both in kitchen to make thrive bites and Chris said he couldn’t cook. That was no lie, she posted that she sent Chris a text when she was late getting home to put one of the roasts in and what to do and when she got home he had put both the roasts in from the package because he didn’t realize the package had two separate ones in it. There also was a video of the kids hanging wash on a clothes rack to dry helping her, Perhaps he wanted people to think he did everything but clearly he did not
He did do all the laundry.
Good God reading that gave me a headache. She was so mentally draining and exhausting, and it seems she had the writing skill set of a child. Tenses all mixed, using “no” instead of “any”, the whole conversation made her look rude, demanding, overly dramatic and self absorbed. To say she was an overbearing drama queen is an understatement. Every sentence is “I want”, “I need” or some other form of “me”, the only time she mentions him is to lambast him or tell him what he needs to be doing. He was working long shifts 50 plus hours a week while she sat home, playing pretend and bankrupting everyone. She couldn’t even watch the kids, they had to go to an overpriced nursery they never could afford because the children were so “draining” and unruly at times. So naturally she goes and gets pregnant. You can’t handle two kids, nor can you afford them as you’re in 6 figure debt with only your husband’s 5 figure salary to boot, your home is about to be foreclosed on, HOA is suing you for back payment and creditors are calling, so naturally another kid would be in order (In Shan’anns mind).
It’s do ridiculous you’d think it was a failed script for the “Divine Comedy”. Shan’ann really thought she was this person who could do it all and do no wrong, and she was so far from it it’s laughable. It’s always Chris who needs to read this, do that, get help, do better… Yet when they went to couples counseling and the counselor addressed Shan’ann, she’d get up and leave. Says all you need to know about her.
She’s very similar to someone I know, rude, entitled, lacks culture and in general, there’s nothing special about her. Couldn’t cut it in a career, no academic degrees or accolades, no identity of her own and no accomplishments in life so in order to get attention they make a huge spectacle of themselves on social media. They announce every mundane part of their bland life and follow the herd, sitting every issue and being overly dramatic in every post in order to illicit a reaction. If your accomplishments (or lack thereof in this case), looks, personality and career are all average or below – yet you crave attention, you’ll find these people doing anything just to get a minute of it. even if it’s negative attention, they don’t care, it’s the spotlight of their day.
That was good.
I give you 👍🏼👍🏼and ⭐️⭐️⭐️⭐️⭐️. Great post, couldn’t have said it better myself.
You really took all that personal, didn’t you?
No, not really. However, I got off social media years ago because I was sick of seeing the drama created by bored women who wanted their own version of a real life “desperate housewife” TV show. Of course men do this as well, but men tend to “peacock” on social media whereas women like to do the “look at how great I am” while stepping on others to uplift themselves. They feed off the drama and attention, and Shanann was no better. I do find it disgusting though how she lied to others to rope them in, even though she knew Thrive was the main source of their money issues. This wasn’t her first MLM, more like her fifth, so she knows they’re detrimental and she was more than okay with lying to friends and family to get them to join. Even so, she still couldn’t get ten people below her on her downline, and you need about ten times that to make a barely liveable wage. She didn’t care who she scammed with the MLMs or the embezzlement, as long as she profited she didn’t care.
I understand you were trying to take a dig at me and weren’t really looking for a response, but I figured I would clarify anyway.
She also needed tons of sympathy– all the pictures of her in a neck brace for some weird elective neck surgery, the imaginary nut allergies, the manufactured drama. She really was an empty vessel, a gaping void that would suck the life out of anyone. Her “friends” weren’t really even friends, they were more like followers or sadly, in Nickole’s case, fans. The whole thing is tragic, but man, she was pathological.
Nailed it!
Very well said!!! I’m impressed with a lot of these comments. They’re very well thought out and extremely insightful. You’re is too!
I’m not defending him or his actions by any means, but she kept telling others she wished he’d be more argumentative and asshole, careful what ya wish for I guess. He deserves every bit of hatred that comes his way from people, but she damn sure wasn’t innocent in creating this monster imo.
I don’t know how CW stayed with SW as long as he did. If anybody had the good life during those years, it was SW. The girls went to daycare (very expensive daycare, every day, Chris did all the laundry, took care of the kids on the weekends, handed over his paycheck and wasn’t “,,given” a cess to his own money. What a wuss.
Agreed.
I completely agree with what you said CBH.
The War of the Roses (1989).
lol. they are both as bad. she may not have thought about Killing Chris, but what she was doing is just as bad. Killing someone emotionally is even worst.
I agree CBH. It’s like the Triumverate (Cassie, Nickole and Shan’ann) had decided what must be done with Watts. Take the house, or shove him down to the basement or in a room with a newborn. It’s not like she didn’t know what was ailing him – how could she not know? She’s gone for five weeks, then gets into a fight with his parents and plays take away with the kids. “Bye.” I also don’t think it’s right to blast your marital difficulties to someone else. Interesting though she didn’t seek the council of her parents. Or her brother. Might they have pointed out similar difficulties with Leonard, the first husband? And no wonder Watts shut down his facebook – he must have imagined everything about their personal life would be played out for the whole world to see.
I agree, entirely. It really had escalated into an unmanageable mess, and the divorce process would surely have made the crisis worse.
Addendum:
This having people move in for a year or two must have gotten really stale for Chris. It’s a bad enough solution as it is – really, to run things into the ground and then have people camp out in your home – but it was most definitely not going to work with his love life with Nichol.
The over-long text she sent him in the middle of the night about his Mom and CeCe is a long-winded, self-righteous, and pompous litany : She has to “protect her kids from the evil of the world”. This surely indicated to Chris that Shannan’s obnoxious attitude toward his mother would soon be turned on him. This had to be the moment his murder plan solidified. His daughters would not be his, nor would his son: They would be used as weapons in an aggressive war.
“She moved in her parents for 15-16 months” Fairly new marriage for this to happen.
This is another little backstory I am curious about.
How does a couple just leave their home and move their life. Apparently no jobs to keep them in NC. If SW mother is the owner of the hair salon, she possibly had a manager. CW said during interview that NUA was the manager of a salon that SW mother worked at, which is how they met. Her father is a carpenter, so maybe he picked up jobs in CO.
Living on savings?
Wonder why they moved back to NC.
for me, this is the M.C. Escher of crime stories.
“The M.C. Escher of crime stories.” Brilliant imagery!!! Thank you!! Hi
“This is another little backstory I am curious about.
How does a couple just leave their home and move their life.”
In the case of SW and CW, it was CW who had lined up a job as a mechanic in the car dealership in CO. So CW was SW’s ticket outta town – and she practically sprained something selling that house of hers as fast as she could. SW wanted to flee NC, and CW provided the way out. Also, the too-big house they bought in CO was entirely CW buying it, using his own credit and resources, since SW had trashed her credit and was nothing but a liability at that point. To add to the weirdness, I don’t understand how SW’s parents could move in with CW and SW *in CO*, leaving their NC lives behind, for an entire year, and then move *back* to NC as if nothing had happened! What!
@Ralph
“This is another little backstory I am curious about.
How does a couple just leave their home and move their life.”
My comment was referring to SW parents not SW / CW.
Will try to be clearer for you going forward.
Thanks, nancyjames – I caught that; I was just wondering about both sets of couples up and relocating. At least CW and SW stayed put; her parents moving out of state and in with them for almost a year and a half and then moving right back to where they’d been before was really weird.
Agree, CBH.
I wonder why she didnt sit down with her mother in law and really listen to what the mil had to say. Save all that drama about the tree nuts.
“I wonder why she didnt sit down with her mother in law and really listen to what the mil had to say.”
They’d gotten off on the wrong foot from day 1, it sounds like. Remember, CW’s parents did not attend his wedding to SW. From that video where SW is filming NUA and another lady who are over at her house taste-testing Thrive bars – and NUA is clearly not happy at all about being used in a video without her consent that way – it seems that SW, for all her lovey dovey text language, was actually quite inconsiderate and overbearing toward others, even those she claimed to care very much about. SW seems virtually oblivious to how what she wants to do affects others, and when they try to let her know, she brushes it off. I would have loved to be the fly on the wall the first few times SW interacted with CW’s mom, see where and how the obvious antagonism between those two developed. They were both obviously “done” with each other, and CW was put right in the middle – by SW.
SW was demanding that CW take her side *against* his own parents – a choice no one should ever have to make on another’s say-so – and I have to wonder about how much of her description of the ice cream incident at CW’s parents’ house was accurate and how much was manipulative histrionics on her part. As CW was pulling away, SW was clearly ratcheting up the drama to try and reel him back in, get him safely back under her control.
Demanding that someone cut off his own parents, when he apparently feels he has a good relationship with them, is a very dangerous ultimatum to issue – there’s simply no way that sort of thing is going to end well, even though it rarely ends in multiple murders.
I think it was a power play. Therefore, the drama was more useful to her than sitting and listening in earnest. Not her style.
Agreed. The only time she wanted to sit down and have a conversation was when she had something to say, otherwise it wasn’t happening. She bulldozed others, lied, stole and scammed and when she couldn’t do it anymore she would either move or throw a tantrum. Now all her karma was coming back around and she was about to be divorced for the second time before she’s even 35, with three kids, two bankruptcies and a credit score that wouldn’t allow her to rent a movie let alone buy a home. She’d have no choice but to give up the “Thrive made me rich and made all my dreams come true” garbage as she’d be shooting videos from her new dwelling in her parents basement as her 3 wild kids tore up the place. She also knew the chances of some rich man swooping in to “save” her was probably never going to happen as she’s now divorced x2 with three kids and no career. Men wouldn’t exactly be lining up to date her.
“I’m not going to worry about family I’m just going to remove it.” I think the last two sentences in that long text planted the seed. Then CW didn’t respond for four days. Then later that twitter or FB post where josh said people should be careful with words they can make people do terrible things. I mean it’s tragic that her words had such horrific consequences and this should serve as a reminder that words shouldn’t be used haphazardly. I think his mom made him into a submissive person, and he got overwhelmed with where the path of submissiveness led him.
Well said, Carly.
I think you’re right.
No wonder Chris felt “locked in,” as Nick refers to it. Unbelievable. I’m going to say it: Shan’ann was a piece of work and had no scruples. Even if you’re entertaining divorce you have to or should do so with some sense of fairness—even in the midst of roiling emotions.
Agreed!
What a terrible sin.
The first house, in ex husband’s name and she got it? Interesting, cause she told everyone it was her house.
Her parents staying with them…. financial problems also.
Can you imagine in laws living with you that long.
Shanann and her thriver 2 friends. No respect for Chris from all of them, espiscally his wife…..Bitch.
Those 2 other broads, should be disgusted with themselves.
I always said she caused her demise. Now I see why.
And Chris had no idea, his wife was talking trash about him.
Behind closed doors, was probably quite bad.
Too bad, no trial, he might have had a chance.
Shannon, I completely agree with you. Thanks for putting my thoughts into words.
Thank you….K.
Did I say Free?
I think a trial , would have been interesting. We would all know much more!
Good point.
Women if you are bad mouthing your spouse like this to your friends you might as well hang the marriage up. Can you bounce ideas and concerns off a friend, sure. But the level of vitriol that’s displayed in these messages are never ok, no matter how justified you feel in doing it. CW probably thought he was justified in his decision making as well. Big thing I notice is a communication breakdown between CW and SW entirely.
Fairness would be decided in the courts! Shan’ann wasn’t the one cheating, Chris was. As for Chris’s mother – she’s toxic. Shan’ann had every right to protect her daughter from that vicious, hateful witch. I’d bet Chris was never allowed to stand up for himself when it came to his mother. His mother obviously had his balls in a jar right next to Chris’s dad’s! No wonder Shan’ann got a boy who couldn’t deal with confrontation!
Chris’s mother stood up to her. I’m very glad. You see Shanann’s not used to that. Over dramatic and quite inmature.
We only have one story here also. Remember Chris told his Mom, I’m done with her.
Well Karma’s a bitch.
What goes around, comes around…..in a Full circle.
@shannon I bet you anything that you are actually Cindy Watts hiding behind these “Shannon” comments and bashing Shan’ann. It’s def something a twisted narcissist like Cindy Watts would do! It’s you isn’t it Cindy? Sick woman!
Geoff.
Considering I’ve never seen a comment of yours and have no idea Who you are.
I can read people pretty good. Shanann in my eyes, from watching videos , reading posts and hundreds of comments, have come to my own conclusions that:
Shanann is a Bully, Liar, self centered, self absorbed, narcissistic, mean spirited, Controlling Bitch.
I don’t care Who you think I am. Because I know who I am.
Got it.
PS: I’m a very happy Canadian.
I agree with this comment.
Geoff “@shannon I bet you anything that you are actually Cindy Watts hiding behind these “Shannon” comments and bashing Shan’ann. It’s def something a twisted narcissist like Cindy Watts would do! It’s you isn’t it Cindy? Sick woman!”
I guess we are at the point in the case where posters begin feeding off each other.
bon appetit
I have no idea. When I stop laughing, I’ll let you know.
That is a stupid and rud comment. Everybody has the right to say what they think…It’s not bashing a victim, it’s discussing and getting to know why things happened the way they did. Love your work “True Crime Rocket Science” this is by far one of my favourite posts!!!
I would question the maturity of a mother who won’t go to her own sons wedding because she doesn’t like the woman he picked. To me that’s the height of immaturity, he was an adult
Do you, we, really know why they didn’t attend.
We can only speculate.
There’s alot of immaturity on both sides.
Mitzi – It may have had something to do with the gluten and invitation accusations made against the Watts, by Shanann, at her engagement party,
According to Sandra Rzucek, in her letter to the DA, Cindy Watts and Jamie contaminated all of their food with gluten, despite being told Shanann was gluten intolerant.
In addition, Shanann asserted to Sandra and Chris that Jamie deliberately did not mail the invitations, and so that was the reason no friends showed up.
In retrospect, with all that we know now, I think these were just more lies and hysteria from Shanann. No wonder Ronnie Watts said Shanann was “bi-polar.” I bet she whacked out often.
Geoff… You seem to be new here and of the mindset that anyone that disagrees with the false narrative of Shan’ann being an “angel” is either a member of the Watts family, or even worse “victim blaming”. People have agency in this life, and while Shan’ann pretended terrible things just happened to her, she failed to see that she was the cause of many of them.
Chris wasn’t perfect, neither was Shan’ann and I’m yet to meet anybody that is. However, why would a seemingly normal and like human being with absolutely no criminal history and no history of violence kill his whole family? Now what if I told you about another person, a person with a history of skipping out on bills, racking up hundreds of thousands in debt only to never pay it, who dropped out school, that had multiple evictions, obliterated credit, bankruptcies and a criminal history that included embezzlement, managed to push someone to their limit. They engaged in multiple scams, get rich quick schemes, and also tried to make money off of others in bad financial situations by lying to them and taking their money. Would you believe that the aforementioned person is a good person? Probably not right? That’s Shan’ann in a nutshell. All of the above is things she’s done or engaged in.
She didn’t deserve to die, but saying “he just snapped” is ludicrous and it ignores the complexity of this case, and the very large roll she played in her own demise; Be that financially and literally. Safe to say she was an entitled woman with no real accomplishments who, throughout her short life, tried to take advantage of and manipulate everyone and everything around her. If it involved hard work, character building, introspection, skills or talent, she avoided it like the plague in favor of shortcuts. That’s who she was, and I can’t imagine how someone dealt with that for years. Chris is a coward, but my god, did that man try for almost a decade with her. After multiple self help books, talks, therapeutic sessions (couples counseling where she would walk out when the therapist suggested she change, refusing to go back) and almost 9 years of indentured servitude, he cheated. Shan’ann wasn’t in love with him anyway, just the image he helped her project and the money he provided. How else could she stay home playing “boss babe” even though every month the MLM cost more than she ever made? She needed him and realized that only when he was packing his things.
Think of what your life would be like living with a person like that, put yourself in his shoes for a moment. I wouldn’t kill my family, but I sure as hell would avoid my home life like the plague. Nobody wants to come home from 12 plus hours of grueling work to a hopped up banshee shoving a camera in your face yelling at you to smile, only to find out the kids still aren’t fed and the mortgage hasn’t been payed in months. That sounds like hell on earth to me.
“Nobody wants to come home from 12 plus hours of grueling work to a hopped up banshee shoving a camera in your face yelling at you to smile, only to find out the kids still aren’t fed and the mortgage hasn’t been payed in months. That sounds like hell on earth to me.”
This is everything, thank you.
@Diana I agree!
@mitzi His father and sister didn’t attend the wedding either. What does that say about them? Or does it say something about her?
I don’t think CW’s mother is toxic. I think SW was toxic. I don’t excuse the affair, but if you ask me, it’s understandable. NK actually liked him and probably treated him like a man instead of dressing him up in an elf outfit for christmas, That photo alone is enough to make me sick. He was nothing more to SW than a thing to use.
K — I couldn’t believe it when I saw that photo, all I could think of was Will Ferrell in ‘Elf’ ! I think the photo kind of sums up their dynamic in a nutshell. Wasn’t that the same Christmas as the dreaded Santa/Chris video in which he basically just sat there, and Bella and CeCe were obviously horrified at having ‘Santa’ in their house? What a mess.
I think it’s interesting that his mother hated SW more than she loved her son (not attending wedding) and how that relates to CW hating SW more than he loved his kids.
Apple didn’t fall far from tree IMO.
I have said the same thing. I think that Cindy wants his taken so much abuse over what her son did…. And it is absolutely not her fault. Do I think her son is a Despicable psychopath? Yes. But do I think that Cindy Watts loves her son?? Well of course she does!!!!. He’s her child. Of course she will love him until one of them are dead. I don’t care what any of my children ever do… No matter what, I will love them…. If I don’t agree with something they’ve done, if I’ve even DETESTED something they did…. It doesn’t mean I won’t love them still.
With all due respect, if my son murdered my grandchildren he would be dead to me. Stop coddling this man. She may have been far from perfect but so was he. IMO there is NO excuse for killing innocent children. Especially ones you made.
Then you don’t understand unconditional love. And it makes me sorry for your son.
Very well said!
Diana – Colorado courts; during divorce, parenting time, and child support actions; do not care about an affair unless the affair partner is a bad influence on the kids.
Remember that the “fuck him” attitude came about after his emotions changed toward Shan’ann. Not only did the idiot’s emotions change for the worse but he continuously gaslighted his wife by telling her that he loved her, that he would “fix” matters and just needed some space. He did not have the balls to confront her about his affair or even ask for a divorce. I am of the mind that an event is not precipitated by a single person or action, it’s a domino avalanche of a maelstrom. The maelstrom here are the finances, the marital difficulties, Chris’ gravitation toward strong-willed women, the third pregnancy, etc. Shan’ann did not bring this on herself and her children and there would be no “fuck Chris” had he manned up and confronted his problems honestly with his wife.
But I can’t help imagining, had he confronted her about her delusional spending, her fake job, and her aggressively controlling parenting; and admitted he was in love with Nichol and wanted a divorce, that she would have responded in any other way but trashing him, seeking to destroy him, and saying, Fuck You.
Ahh, but there’s the rub CBH, he didn’t confront her! Chris is just as much at fault for their financial situation as Shan’ann. Apparently his answer was to bury his head in the sand. Again, he was likely doing what the Wicked Witch Mamma Watts taught him to do, suck it up! She did her son no favors by teaching him not to stand up for himself.
I don’t think Chris was in love with Nichol because I don’t think Chris felt love as normal people do. To Google How it feels to be in love? To dump your kids bodies in oil? He didn’t feel love. If he wound up with Nichol, she would’ve dumped him in short order once she realized he needed babysat on EVERY. SINGLE. DECISION. Nichol was too smart to take on a “man” that she needed to raise! I’m sure it was no picnic for Shan’ann either, she already has 3 kids and one on the way.
I assume he was just finding out about what she’d really been up to with finances, making huge payments on the Lexus when she’d bragged about it being given to her by Thrive, etc. in those last weeks. Googling how it feels to be in love is not understood by women: He was searching for words to write to Nichol. So was he being babysat by Nichol through the murder process, then?
Please refrain from using all caps in your comments.
Diana – it could be that Chris had no clue about finances until the summer when he was served with the bill that HOA fees hadn’t been paid for over a year.
The summons was returned on June 30, when Shanann was in NC.
So Chris got it, signed it, and sent it back. I sure hope we see the texts from him to Shannan about “WTH is this – we aren’t paying out HOA dues?” That might add another piece to the puzzle.
CBH – Stop “imagining”, and stick to facts. That has no place here.
A fact we know is that Chris SAID they used a ‘cycle tracker’, trying to get his wife pregnant.
A fact we know is that Chris’ mother provided ice cream with nuts in it, and a bowl of nuts.
A fact we know is that Chris cheated on his wife.
A fact we know is that Chris murdered his family.
A fact we know is that Chris buried his wife face-down.
A fact we know is that Chris pushed his children into oil tanks.
A fact we know is that Chris lied and lied and lied and lied and lied and lied.
Men defend men at all costs, but WHY? He MURDERED them all!
Your ‘imagining’ tells me so much, I’m sick.
Please don’t respond with an explanation of your post, because nothing you say in defense of it will mean anything to any woman.
Shan’ann is not here to reply to your imaginings, either.
These comments are getting very personal Pam. I think when one brings sexism into a discussion, it doesn’t really address the merits of the case, it tends to address the attitudes of people talking about it, which is irrelevant. Please don’t use all caps.
Don’t speak for me please. She was a nightmare and he just wanted out.
Pam- Anybody who says “don’t respond with an explanation of your post, because nothing you say in defense of it will mean anything,” shows an incapability to have a proper discussion with anybody who doesn’t share the same exact views as you. Sticking your head in the sand and refusing to listen to others differing opinions really isn’t the mature way to deal with anything.
“A fact we know is that Chris’ mother provided ice cream with nuts in it, and a bowl of nuts.”
Pam, we’ve also seen the videos where the virtuous goddess Shan’Ann deliberately feeds her daughter CeCe a “Thrive” bar, whose ingredients list includes “tree nuts” – and CeCe suffered no ill effects.
Would *love* to hear your perspective on that.
Thanks. In addition, Shannan had no problem allowing 2 asthmatic toddlers to be around her heavily cigarette smoking mother.
“A fact we know is that Chris lied and lied and lied and lied and lied and lied.”
Pam, a fact we know is that Shan’Ann lied and lied and lied and lied and lied – about her upscale lifestyle, about being able to afford *hundreds* of pairs of useless shoes and handbags, about having been involved in SEVEN MLM scams, about how happy she was, about her car being paid for, about how much she was earning, about all those legal cases against her (embezzlement, etc.) in NC, about *everything*…
Care to address any of that?
Pam, nobody appointed you the spokesperson for all women.
Get over yourself.
Either address the facts and details of the case or run along. Attacking the other posters here is not acceptable behavior – deal with it.
Gayle Gailen, I don’t know that I wouldn’t have avoided a confrontation with Shan’ann given the self-serving and vicious nature that was lying just beneath the surface of all that public sweetness. And you can’t have it both ways in claiming that an event is not precipitated by a single person I.e., the crumbling marriage, and then blame everything on the “idiot” Chris.
“continuously gaslighted his wife”
Before I knew that gaslighting was, I was on the receiving end of it.
Seeing all controlling, tough broad, facebook Sha’nann deal with her dose, was very interesting.
It truly does make one nuts and or shut down.
Just goes to show how insidious this gaslight behavior is on the target.
Happy to announce, in my case, it will only happen once.
@Gayle and Nancy I agree with what you’re saying, but who exactly was gaslighting who? I don’t think I can point to any one thing we know, or have seen in their communications, that indicates definitive gaslinghting, on Chris’ part, or even Shan’ann’s. Lying about an affair isn’t necessarily gaslighting, although it feels like it on the receiving end. It’s more insidious and crazy making than that, and Nancy is right to say that it feels like you’re going nuts and you shut down. It’s a pattern of behavior by one individual towards another, and it’s hard to see from the outside looking in. And you need distance from the relationship, combined with a little sell’-awareness, to see it for what it is.. Is there anything in particular you can point to that indicates a true form of gaslighting? I genuinely want to know, as I’ve been looking for evidence indicating that CW is a sociopath since the beginning. Excluding a couple of possible indications of gaslighting (like possibly the doll in the twister mat), I can’t really see that he’s anything but normal in the psychiatric sense.
“Remember that the “fuck him” attitude came about after his emotions changed toward Shan’ann.”
From SW’s perspective, CW was simply claiming his own space, not immediately saying “How high?” when SW said “Jump.” People change within long-term relationships; their needs change; a spouse who was formerly submissive may start becoming more assertive; etc. Sometimes all it takes is a new job or a change in responsibilities; the person starts feeling competent and confident, and it bleeds over into all areas of a person’s life. It seems this was happening with Chris as he grew in his career, with how he advanced at the auto dealership and then moved to a plum oil field job with Andarko; he was respected by his colleagues wherever he went. His comment about how it would be nice to hang a picture on the wall of his own home without Shan’Ann rehanging it was symptomatic of Chris’ growing self-confidence and identity – he wanted more autonomy within their relationship. He wanted more of an existence as a person than just Shan’Ann’s convenience. Chris was pretty young when they met and married; Shan’Ann had been married before. I’m sure Shan’Ann changed upon having children – that’s so typical no one really thinks about those changes.
If the other spouse immediately defaults to “fuck him”, what does that say about the ability of that relationship to grow and change to accommodate the participants’ growth and development as individuals? Any time there is an overabundance of *control*, that indicates crippling amounts of fear. SW’s “fuck him” reaction indicates terror and brittleness – she had to have everything her way, a specific way, only one way or else she panicked. She was completely inflexible – she felt she had to control everything. She already treated Chris with an alarming level of disrespect and disdain; I think I read somewhere that contempt was the most telling symptom a relationship couldn’t be saved. If CW had gone the route of divorce, I believe SW would have made his situation as difficult as possible, to punish him for outgrowing her, rather than working with him as an equal to respect the fact that they’d both changed and now it was time to do something differently.
But we’ll never know…
Ralph Oscar, this is a very insightful post and very well stated. Thank you!
I especially appreciate your use of the word “brittleness” when referring to Shan’ann’s inflexibility. I think this trait informed a feral fragility that ignited, as you say, terror and panic on the one hand, as well as an intractable combativeness that manifested as bullying on the other. The combination of the two was dangerous and posed, in Chris’s mind, an existential threat to him–materially and psychologically.
Post-divorce Shan’ann would have made his life a living hell, especially seeing her future was going to be truncated by three children, poor employment prospects (she had no technical or professional work history that would provide a sustainable salary for herself and her children), and aging–she was quickly approaching middle age. Moreover, Shan’ann’s post-Chris circumstances would not have attracted men who would be willing to stick around and provide the life to which she felt entitled. As a result, she would have continuously directed her rage at Chris versus undertaking some serious self-assessment and practical measures, which she was incapable of doing per her “brittleness.”
I’m coming in super late but bravo, well written!
I’m acquainted with a woman exactly as you describe: controlling, insecure, deeply brittle and inflexible. I’m friends with the third man she married. He supported her exactly as CW supported SW, for years! She had several children all from different men who’d skipped out on support. So it was all dumped on my friend. We gamed together and I was always flabbergasted at the workload he sometimes mentioned in passing. We all were. I think our reactions helped him see what was going on.
He put up with it till he figured himself out, at which point he developed strength, will, resolution, and all that maturity stuff. She absolutely panicked when she saw him growing in maturity, too. One day he told us she’d bought a weird Christian marriage advice book (neither were Christian! Like even remotely! And she knew it was a fundie book–it said so on the cover!). Like she thought that might get him back to heel. It didn’t. She tried everything to get them back where she felt most comfortable. That was always her goal. She didn’t want a new normal. She wanted the old badness back. It’d served her so well, after all.
They divorced, and she made that process hurt as much as she could. We all ended up moving shortly afterward, but I’ll never forget how he laughed. No matter what she did to punish him, he knew if he just kept moving forward, he’d be free of her eventually. As bad and acrimonious as the divorce was, his freedom was worth it.
Sometimes I compare that couple to SW and CW. CW suffered some flaws that my gaming friend didn’t, and same for his wife and SW, and I think sometimes about the millions of people like that friend who get into similar bad marriages but end things without a bloodbath. These two intersected in the worst possible ways.
SW didn’t deserve her fate, and I’m sure that exact knowledge kept her from suspecting a thing till the Silver Fox knocked her down in her final minutes.
Thanks, Cheryl. I particularly liked this observation of yours:
“this trait informed a feral fragility that ignited, as you say, terror and panic on the one hand, as well as an intractable combativeness that manifested as bullying on the other. The combination of the two was dangerous and posed, in Chris’s mind, an existential threat to him–materially and psychologically.”
Shan’Ann was ruled by the flight or fight instinct, it seems, because she didn’t have the experience or skills to address conflict or change in a healthy manner. All that makeup, the expensive clothes, the carefully posed image – that was Shan’Ann’s “armor” to protect her from the world. Chris’s approach was to go “gray rock” and keep his head down, avoid the conflict by just going along with everything. And when the flight or fight hit him, it manifested with murderous results. It’s really hard to condemn people who are so trapped, isn’t it? I’m reminded of this quote from the great mental health pioneer Karl Menninger:
“When a trout rising to a fly gets hooked on a line and finds himself unable to swim about freely, he begins with a fight which results in struggles and splashes and sometimes an escape. Often, of course, the situation is too tough for him.”
“In the same way the human being struggles with his environment and with the hooks that catch him. Sometimes he masters his difficulties; sometimes they are too much for him. His struggles are all that the world sees and it naturally misunderstands them. It is hard for a free fish to understand what is happening to a hooked one.”
The more I feel I understand, the more I just feel sad for everyone involved.
I have to agree with you Ralph. The more I read the sadder it is. I think sometimes two people get together and it is combustible. If they never met this awful out come probably would have never happened. 🙁
I am of the mind that an event is not precipitated by a single person or action, it’s a domino avalanche of a maelstrom. >>>So in your mind, was Shan’ann not part of that maelstrom? Or is the maelstrom all to do with Watts’ flaws and weaknesses as a human being? It seems like your view is basically “fuck him” too.
Nick, many many men have to deal with worse wive, very bad financial situations but they don’t kill their own children. How could you explain this?
There is an explanation, and I’ve explained it several times.
Shanann cheated on her first husband with Chris, instead of “manning up” and telling her first husband that she was through with him, she just stopped coming home.
Shanann had a long history of terrible financial decisions, pyramid schemes, cutting corners and overall screwing people over after sucking resources out of them. She was dumb as a brick and thought she was smarter than everyone else, you see this in the discovery documents when the cop pulls her over. “She had been speeding and proceeded to blow through a red light at a crowded intersection at 830am on a clear, bright day. When I pulled over the (old white run down car prior to the Lexus) vehicle, her first words to me (officer) were “Why the fuck did you pull me over.” When I explained to her the aforementioned, her response was “I’m not gonna hit the fucking brakes with the kids in the car” so I asked her if she somehow thought hitting the brakes was worse than barreling through a red light at rush hour.” He then wrote her tickets for speeding and for her car being unworthy of driving on the road. This happened in CO. This is a small but interesting glimpse into how Shanann treated people who got in her way. If this is how she speaks to a cop, it’s no wonder she had zero friends outside of the MLM and why her first husband had nothing nice to say about her.
To say Shanann was a successful, happy person who had no turmoil in her marriage isn’t just a lie, it’s the complete opposite of what and who she was. She absolutely had a hand in her own undoing, the children were the innocent ones, and while nobody deserved to die, Shanann pushed Chris until his back was against the wall. She was a very unpleasant woman.
“When I pulled over the (old white run down car prior to the Lexus) vehicle, her first words to me (officer) were ‘Why the fuck did you pull me over.'”
Yeesh – what a *mouth* on her! Do you suppose that she felt that the problem was that “old white run down car”? After all, she received a citation for that car not being roadworthy. If she *only* had a really *nice* car, she’d never get pulled over because the cops don’t bully the elites – see where I’m going with this? This suggests to me that all the “stuff” was Shan’Ann’s way of insulating herself from a hostile world that wanted to make her unhappy, that was out to “get” her. That she was only being “persecuted” because they perceived that she was poor and low-class – she could *fix* that. She could have used that citation for the non-roadworthy vehicle to convince Chris that it was time to take the plunge on the LeVel “car allowance” and get that fancy leased Lexus – do the timelines match up? Was this set of citations shortly before they signed that lease for the Lexus?
There is *definitely* a perception out there that, if you’re driving a beater, you’re much more likely to be pulled over and harassed by the cops.
Also, the officer’s account of this incident shows us a fascinating glimpse into Shan’Ann’s mind – who talks smack at an authority figure like a police officer? Who *does* that?? Did she think that if she simply came on strong and tough he’d back down, that he’d “respect” her for her spine or her moxie or how she wasn’t about to let herself be intimidated? If she thought that approach would get her out of a ticket, she was clearly wrong. SW was a pretty woman; where’s the typical flirty-flirty approach pretty women so often use in hopes of charming the cop out of giving them a citation?
Hey Ralph, what’s the source for this incident with the officer?
See thetinytech’s comment I was replying to – he says it was in the discovery docs. But I didn’t read it there myself – my comment is based on hearsay.
I wonder if thetinytech can say where it comes from.
That’s a direct quote from the source in TinyTechs post. I clearly remember reading it from a reliable source (discovery doc I’m sure), and the red light ticket would be public record. The officer’s notes indicate his obvious disbelief at the obstinate attitude and foul language (in front of her children, no less) to include in his report. Very poor example of appropriate behavior to set for a child -it left a lasting impression with me…just as it did for the patrolman.
That’s fine, but where is it?
Since TinyTech used a direct quote, I assume he/she knows the page no. – 1st doc dump is where I read it. Is there still a pdf of it somewhere? I’d scan it, if I had access to it.
Page 1020 references the ticket issued in 2014, but the exact officer’s description of the incident was cleaned up. What I read wasn’t from a Baumhover report. It was in an unredacted copy.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/16JKE6DEzoOBQUGhiyjJqzX-ZhKLn9R9o/view
Good find! Do you have a link to that unredacted copy? The link in your post is to the redacted version.
I don’t. I hope TT sees this thread because the direct quote from the traffic citation might be from a downloaded copy? I’m glad I read the unredacted discovery before Weld Co. realized their mistake. That officer’s description of his encounter with SW was not flattering, and it’s telling that they edited it.
Mustn’t speak ill of the dead…
It’s page 1137 of the Discovery Documents [1020 of the PDF]. What’s the source on the “exact” officer’s description?
https://crimerocket.files.wordpress.com/2019/03/fullscreen-capture-20190809-142349.jpg?w=676
https://crimerocket.com/2019/03/24/shanann-watts-criminal-and-traffic-record/
Watts has also said – might be a lie, might not – that there was no talking with her. It was her way or the highway. Yes, it’s too bad he was “cowed”, it’s too bad he wiped out everyone or anyone, but in her messages she claims not to know what’s gotten in to him when clearly only days before he arrived to NC she had a blow out with his parents and apparently thought nothing of cancelling them out of their grandchildren’s lives. I haven’t been a big fan of Cindy’s, but you can’t drive a wedge between your husband and his parents and then claim not to know what could be wrong with him. Also when they visited Colorado and seemed to ignore her as she’s filming the event, he was kind to his wife and stood by her as they toured the downtown. That just struck me as a kindness of his.
“Watts has also said – might be a lie, might not – that there was no talking with her. ”
Shan’Ann’s first husband said the same thing – once she’d made up her mind, that was it. No more discussion.
Yes. But in first marriage, no kids, not preggy with 3rd. Car wasn’t paid for…lease, no big house, far away from family. But she mentioned 1st house in Kings name, but she got it?
Was her credit that bad, back then.
So it will as easy for her to walk away from that.
2nd marriage, much more at stake.
Once you have the “fuck it attitude’, the game changes.
She had no idea she was playing with 🔥 Fire.
She forgot that she needed Chris, more then he needed her.
It’s unfortunate, she never realized the situation she created, and I believe the last straw for Chris……was her going on and on about the Nuts. She wouldn’t drop it. She was like a broken record, probably for years.
I think no family, friends wanted to challenge her, to speak up to her. They knew what she was about and who she was.
When you play with people’s emotions, if can get ugly.
((*-*))
It seems that Shan’Ann behaved as a bull in a china shop for the most part. She had these relationships that were kind of cringeworthy – who tells others they’re planning to go masturbate? I’m in particular thinking of that video where Shan’Ann has two ladies over – NUA and another – and she’s filming them taste-testing Thrive bars, and NUA does not like it one bit. She expresses her frustration to Shan’Ann by saying, “You’re always pushing us outside our comfort zone!” and Shan’Ann just ignores this very legitimate objection by saying, “You love me.” Shan’Ann did not acknowledge her friend’s feelings, did not offer to do things different so NUA wouldn’t feel taken advantage of and uncomfortable, and NUA wouldn’t get up and walk out to assert her boundaries. Seems pretty toxic to me. As if once “love” is established, Shan’Ann can do whatever she wants; the effects on the other person are irrelevant; “you love me” is Shan’Ann’s permission slip to do anything she wants to that person. She kept saying “He loves me” in her Facebook posts about Chris, even as she took him for granted. That permission slip again? In Shan’Ann’s mind, did “You love me” mean “I can treat you however I like with no consequences”? Did it mean “You have to always do what I want you to do, whether you like it or not”?
I had neighbors – stay-at-home mom, two small children, homeschooling. Husband went to work, worked pretty long hours, brought home the bacon. In their ménage, he had two jobs, both once a week – to take out the trash and to mow the lawn. He really didn’t enjoy mowing the lawn, so on Fridays, while he was still a work, the wife took to mowing the lawn so he wouldn’t have to – she said she didn’t mind mowing the lawn, so why not? She also took to taking the trash out before he got home so that he could relax after working all day. Of course she was working all day herself, but I thought these were small but very loving ways to express her respect and appreciation for him. I look at everything Chris did around their house, along with getting up in the wee hours of the morning and going to his physically demanding job, while Shan’Ann did…what all day, since the girls were away in preschool? “I’m the pampered princess”?
Ralph Oscar—another great post. There was no reciprocity or respect per Shan’ann. And I think you hit the nail on the head when you say she interpreted love as license—to do anything she damn well pleased no matter the consequences to her mate or her children. By doing so, she made herself and, most tragically, her children, superfluous, disposable.
And meanwhile, with that emotional baggage going on, still wants him to “fk her” as she put it?? Just imagine if the roles were reversed for a second in this
You are making good points though Diana. But I have to wonder if he was such a blob of no feelings and couldn’t feel love then why did she marry him? What does that say about her? She just wanted a puppet?
Sylvester just because I say these things about Chris, in no way does it mean that I think Shan’ann could do no wrong. It doesn’t have to be “Chris’s side” or “Shan’ann’s side”. Its easy to fall into that though – too easy! But I’m trying not to. Shan’ann wasn’t perfect either. I have a sister like her. Always scheming and plotting to have the biggest and the best. Jealous if anyone has a newer car or a nicer house. Hell, her husband died in 1992 when he was only 45 and she was 35 and I was divorced at the time. She’s never remarried and I celebrated my 22 year wedding anniversary yesterday since I remarried in 1997, and let me tell you – she’s even jealous that I have a husband and she doesn’t! I bought a new car once, she went and bought the same car within a week. I showed her new furniture I was going to buy, she went and bought it too, she’s done that twice! When her husband was alive they filed bankruptcy. Then 2 years later they lost their house. She would get the credit card bills out of the mail and hide them. She gives me BOXES of clothes and shoes with tags still on them! She even spent my 80 year old grandma’s money once. She had a boyfriend who she somehow got to buy her 3 tv’s. Then she broke up with him and snuck and took them back to the store for money. One time she went to her priest and told him she needed money for her husband’s heart medication. He gave her money and she went shopping at the mall with it! Yes, seriously! And her husband died of a sudden hear attack because he had no medicine! Yes, I know exactly what games Shan’ann was playing! I’ve seen it all, trust me. I just feel that Chris should’ve been present with their finances, so to me, its 50% his fault. I read elsewhere that Chris was handling the finances when they did bankruptcy and that’s why he handed it over to Shan’ann. True or not? Don’t know!
As for Chris not having feelings? I truly believe that. I’m in no way qualified to put a label on Chris when it comes to narcissist, psychopath etc. But, I have read a lot about people who’ve done things that Chris has done. It was like these things were written by someone who knew him! For instance – one of his interviews with Coder. He’s trying to get a confession. He says something like – Chris, tell us where your girls are so we can get them out of the cold. Chris didn’t get it! He said at one point that his kids always had warm beds. I read people who lack feelings tend to buy cards with the words in them because they don’t feel certain feelings and can’t express what they don’t feel. I notice the card he got Nichol. Chris has a “feeling chip” missing somewhere, no empathy maybe? It also made sense when I read that he googled “How does it feel to fall in love” or “When to say I love you for the first time”. There’s more, but you get what I’m saying. Then to see him not really understanding Coder didn’t want his kids out in the cold was a WOW moment.
Did Shan’ann want a puppet?
It certainly appears that’s exactly what she wanted, and she got one too! I don’t know how Shan’ann fell in love with him or him with her. Maybe Shan’ann was just in love with being in love, She wanted her happily ever after I guess. But I do believe that in many ways, Chris was just going through the motions. Then when someone else caught his eye he simply started over again. I’m still learning about Chris and Shan’ann. I don’t have all the answers. Its not men against women or a case of Shan’ann can do no wrong just because I say something unfavorable about Chris. Shan’ann could be really wicked too, as I said, I’ve seen her kind up close! I’ve been critical of both of them. I’m not on anyone’s “side”. Neither was perfect Sylvester.
It feels like CW had never really fallen in love. Hurricane Shan’ann took him completely by surprise, but it wasn’t the same. He probably had no idea that a romantic relationship could run any other way. I’ve known a lot of men like that, especially from religious evangelical Southern backgrounds.
It’s a whole other world in that culture. Men and women expect not to have much in common, to be mysterious to their mates (and beyond frustrating, constantly), to use sex as a bargaining chip and weapon, and to be in a constant state of conflict as each person jockeys for dominance over the other. The partner who gains the most toys and leisure time wins. The one who gets the amount of sex they want wins. The one who gets the last word. Who can show verbal aggression without retaliation. Who commands the other.
Each partner runs a tally of the game’s score in their head. They get downright vicious about it. It’s why men in that culture totally don’t believe that an egalitarian relationship has no veto-wielding husband-in-chief. They don’t believe that a couple can function with no “leader.” If they tried that, they’d be destroyed and they know it.
Then CW met NK. And I don’t think she would even recognize that environment as Earth, let alone a painfully common relationship paradigm. His whole outlook changed. Doors opened in his mind. And he began aching for what he saw past those doors. Problem was, he’d already made a commitment to a fellow traveler in dysfunction.
Pam, sorry, no reply button for your comment. We know the facts that you stated in your comment.. We are trying to understand “why”… CBH has always been been fair in his or her comments. I am a woman and I agree with CBH. One thing that I have learned in life,, women can be just as cruel as men.
Nick, this was a really important, insightful article. Boy, if Chris was on the edge, on the verge, and Shan’Ann announced she was moving her enormous friends Cassie and Josh and their kids in for a YEAR – wow. I mean, the size is an issue, as Chris and Shan’Ann have been slimming down and taking up less space, and now the prospect of these strangers blocking traffic all over the house. I know how I feel when I’m at the grocery store and some Large Marge has parked the shopping cart on the right side of the aisle and is now blocking the entire rest of the aisle bending over to look at some items and no one else can get through. And when some family – three generations – has decided that everybody needs to go together to the grocery store and take up all the space milling about like idiots – I start feeling homicidal.
And to think that Shan’Ann has masterminded this scheme without Chris’ buy in – could he really have said “No” to her? What choice did he have in this situation? Who has people living in their house for a year at a time like Shan’Ann and Chris did – and you know since it was HER parents, it was HER idea. I would never. Ever. Under any.
I hardly think the body sizes of Cassie, Josh, or their kids would have had any bearing on how CW was going to feel about them moving into his home. It’s more about just having outsiders living in one’s home in general. I speak from experience. Since my marriage to my husband in 1997, we have permitted a series of friends and family members to come stay with us, the latest having been my adult daughter, who came last year and stayed in our spare room for about five months. It’s again just my husband and myself, and we like it that way. (Plus our menagerie of two dogs and four kitty cats!)
It’s just hard living with other people, some more so than others, but difficult in general. The Watts marriage was under enough strain. That having been said, however, having those additional housemates would have made it much harder for CW to commit the murders. 🤔
Well, it might. Chris Watts was in the shape of his life, and in a sense “truly Thriving” [if there is such a thing]. Although Nickole and Cassie were talking the Thrive game, I’m not sure it’s fair to say they were living it, or living proof of it. Up for debate I guess.
But I think the real issue is if they had moved in, do you think they would have gotten along. Or would it have been a series of “Fuck hims” by the new tenants on Shan’ann’s behalf? Again, it’s not how you or I would have responded to this situation, but how he did.
“That having been said, however, having those additional housemates would have made it much harder for CW to commit the murders.”
Was the prospect of getting *those* additional housemates enough to push CW over the edge? Was that the straw that made Chris realize that, if his family remained alive, it was just going to get worse and worse and worse and worse and worse?
Yes, big people, big appetite.
Holy ….I could not handle that.
Can you please discuss this case without calling her a B-? How would you like one of your deceased family members to be called a “B-?” “Once you awaken you will have no interest in judging those who sleep.”
Exactly. Totally disgusted at some of the comments on here . What is wrong with people , what sort of homes were they bought up in? To call a deceased woman murdered by her own husband a bitch & all manner of other things, that she caused her own demise is just disgusting . Shame on you all.
So, to your comment, the word “bitch” appears twice in the discovery, both times by Shan’ann herself. In the one instance she uses that word to describe Watts’ mother, and in another, she tells her friend: “I sometimes can be bitchy and he gets that side of me.”
While I personally don’t use the term, and wouldn’t especially for the victim [it’s just tacky], I think your wish for political correctness on behalf of the dead is more about an attempt to control the conversation, than about a genuine wish to understand where all of this is coming from. One of the basics of this case was that Watts was quiet and introverted, and Shan’ann was the opposite. Some might use the word “overbearing”, but it’s the same thing as the “b” word, isn’t it?
In a general sense, slurs do no service to true crime, because as soon as we demonize the victim or the perpetrator, we expose our own shallow inhumanity to one another. TCRS is about the science of man, and name-calling is about as unscientific as it gets.
I would challenge anyone to have a look at autopsies of victims, and then, while looking at them, see how strongly you feel about hurling insults. In the end, we are all dead.
very nice post, thanks for your informatics post
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Security Company London
Nick replied to a comment about NK in one of the previous topics. He told the person not to talk disrespectfully for NK. Not to make assumptions about her involvement in the murder. Not same attitude towards SW. Strange! Most of the people here are really disrespectfull for her and even implying that she is the reason, she caused CW murder hus familly. And this is only a theory like NK involment.
It’s not strange. It wasn’t about talking disrespectfully, it was about slander. Slander is a criminal offence. Accusing someone of being an accessory to a crime, especially a serious crime like murder, without evidence is a criminal offence.
The purpose of this site isn’t to make the claim that Shan’ann is “the reason” Watts murdered her or his family.
Incidentally I see you are the same profile as “Alex”, and “Elllen”.
Ya know, the more this site gets advertised on the SW or CW subreddit, the more people that come here thinking this is reddit or instagram – where you can bully someone into reviving a comment you don’t like. Problem with those subs is they don’t look at anything objectively and they never make Shan’ann take agency in her own life. Everything just “happened” to her. Nothing was ever her fault, she was a angel even though she scammed people and fucked them over. It’s always the same narrative, a useless echo chamber where any evidence showing who she really was is discarded, and anything saying otherwise is victim blaming.
This isn’t reddit, we have brains here and use them to think critically. Crimes like this don’t occur in a vacuum, and a man with no criminal history (unlike Shan’ann) and no history of violence doesn’t “just snap” for no apparent reason.
“Nick replied to a comment about NK in one of the previous topics. He told the person not to talk disrespectfully for NK. Not to make assumptions about her involvement in the murder. Not same attitude towards SW. Strange! Most of the people here are really disrespectfull for her and even implying that she is the reason, she caused CW murder hus familly. And this is only a theory like NK involment.”
Lilly, there is a difference when people are talking of a dead person (who no longer cares) and a living person (who may experience the consequences of careless talk). Can you understand that?
Absolutely right Caro. Thank the lord there are some decent people in the world. The way people on here stick up for a murderer, while attacking his victim, is repugnant. He killed his babies for goodness sake. Then he lied about it, again and again and again. What part of that do you not understand? Stop making up excuses for him!
Dear Ralph.
Thank you for commentary comments, and your reaction to other comments. Especially one poster here.
I enjoy reading your comments.
Also CBH and Slyvester.
Thank you.
Shannon, you mentioned before wanting to see the autopsy – or crime scene photographs. I’ve mentioned this Will Finley guy before on 411 Now. He paid his money just before the autopsy report was released to the public (on the day of Watt’s sentencing I think) and received the report shortly after. We all have read the report, but his included crime scene photos of the victims. Also his report, I take it, was slightly more detailed in it’s description of the other wounds found on Bella, and the hand and finger print on Shan’ann’s face. There may be a declaration enclosed that you cannot share, publish, copy or distribute the pictures. I don’t know – Will didn’t copy them. His only comment was “they aren’t pretty.” So with the Freedom of Information Act – I believe you can request the documents if you so choose. Cannot with JonBenet Ramsey because that case is still considered “ongoing” and “open.”
That’s interesting Sylvester, and makes sense. Do you have any identifying info on the video besides 411. Or could you post a link to the video if you still have it?
This one?
https://youtu.be/FepEZQG6cL0
Sorry! I’m a day late and a dollar short. Yes, it was that 411 video but you know that now. Also yes, it was Bill Finley who gave the description of vomit under the ladder at the burial site and you’re right it’s unsubstantiated. Kind of makes me wonder if he even has the crime scene or autopsy pictures.
TBH same here.
Slyvester.
Would be interesting to see autopsy pictures, since everything is on the Internet. I thought may a leak.
I’ll just wait till maybe they come out.
I’ve seen pictures of JonBenet Ramsey. Quite a few actually.
Thanks.
Shannon I’ll tell on myself. Remember when Nicole Brown Simpson’s bloody face was plastered all over the National Enquirer? But there was always a black bar across her neck. I was tired of seeing that black bar – my imagination ran wild. Then one day I saw it without the black bar. Someone had posted a picture – leaked it from police files most probably – on rotten.com. That makes me a ghoul I guess. It was taken down within days. You could see absolutely everything – the muscles, the tissue, the ligaments.She was nearly decapitated. it really brought home the savagery of his rage and attack on a woman he once professed to love. I can’t help but think what if her children had wandered outside that night. I don’t think it’s wrong to want to see autopsy pictures – or at least crime scene pictures. If you are curious about crime then you are curious about what was done to the victims. By the way, rotten.com is a horrible site, it might be gone now anyway so long ago. Eventually the Watts pictures will get leaked.
Hi Slyvester.
I’ve been on all the Gore sites, for years… even on the underground internet. I’ve seen pictures, videos, morgue. You name it, I’ve seen it all.
It’s a morbid curiosity of mine. Plus I have a ton of books.
Dead bodies(book), which are farms where people donate their body to science, and the elements of 100 different ways, decomposed bodies. To help cops when they come across a body….bugs, weather…etc. and the book, The Iceman. Plus I have biker books, killings and so on. I know some bikers.
I read, watch, look at some pretty ugly things.
Lol.
People think I’m kinda wierd.
And then I also write poems. One is on the Internet.
My interests vary quite wide.
I’ve also had 3 out of body experiences and actually felt my body transcending up out of my bed, you have to be careful thou, you must come back…..and lately…..while alone, someone saying my name, out loud. Only me here. One time even told me to call a friend. I called her. I looked into the entity, saying my name, but it can depend….good or bad.
Plus a few other things also. I always see and hear, back in the 1920’s, a rich party, smoke, drinks and the old, old record player and hear that music. I also see the people.
Different and interesting.
I’ve been told to write a book.
I believe many have commented on how clean the house was. It was in the reports that she kept a clean house. Check out her FB photo and caption from 8/8/18. I do think she was the more dominant one naturally but I also feel like he is the type who doesn’t do for himself. He was living with his parents when they met. He let Nichol K. do all the research other than contacting the realtor I get the impression he is a man child and their was resentment on both sides of the relationship. I really do enjoy all the analysis of this case.
get the impression he is a man child>>>One does have that impression, but is it accurate? Do man children have affairs, and are man children the main breadwinners in the family? In this respect Watts was a lot different to Scott Peterson. Peterson was a failed fertilizer salesman, and he was actively pursuing Laci’s inheritance of jewelry and money as a way out of his own financial morass.
Watts on the other hand was quite dutiful compared to Peterson. Peterson couldn’t deal with a single pregnancy, whereas Watts seemed to be doing okay with two children.
Although Watts wasn’t coining it by any stretch, he was bringing in a fairly solid income. Shan’ann, for the most part wasn’t only not earning her share, but appeared to be overspending – grossly overspending [including her husband’s money + savings].
Are man children big spenders?
Is a man a man child if he washes dishes and does the laundry?
If a woman is the head of a house, is the man a child?
If the man takes an interest in his kids, is the man a child?
But there does seem to be a connection between the Golden Child attitude and that leading to a man child complex.
That’s one of the things about this case that is so fascinating as opposed to the majority of others like it. At the heart of the matter I don’t think that the motive was money. (in terms of life insurance or splitting assets in a divorce.) Nor do I think the mistress was a motive. (Although I believe he cared about her.) Otherwise he would have been more motivated in planning for their future. The motive seems to be straight up control. They seemed to be a techy couple, which can be a method of control. For example, SW would be notified if CW made a transaction, and he didn’t even know how to access his online banking. Not to make disparaging observations about SW, but if CW was a bread winning manchild, she certainly capitalized on that. I think he felt socially, emotionally, economically controlled and then she was attempting to control his relationship with his family. She controlled him in pretty much every way except physically. She controlled his identity.
to elaborate on my previous comment regarding CW identity.. He obviously was a car guy and I remember I think his mom mentioning that he had built up a tool collection and had some tool boxes that he used when he worked at the dealership. I noticed their garage was not like the garage of a man who loved cars and working on them. But every room in their house was spared no expense. He didn’t have any outlets or places of refuge except for working out.
Good point Carly.
The car guy couldn’t even park in the driveway and had specific times when he could and couldn’t open the garage door, dictated by the kids sleeping schedule.
Well said Carly. She also controlled the finances and had excessive social media control, both of which controlled his identity which closed off the exits.
Also, I remember a post where she talks about preparing him several weeks worth of freezer meals.
I was doing some snooping and came across ( my life.com).
Wow….. wow.
I typed in Frank Rzucek, Sandy, with a y… Rzucek and Shanann Watts.
Unbelievable reading on this family.
It seems they all have different names and all have moved numerous times.
It also shows quite a few “Red Alerts” for bankruptcy, court or Lein’s.
Lots to read, but you have to pay to get the details. I didn’t. The front pages were enough.
Numerous other sites have the same information on them.
NZ Herald.
Anadarko has to share the blame for the murders.
Where ever Anadarko does business, murders, aggravated assaults, rapes, Std’s and human trafficking goes up.
Whatever Chris Watts did to his wife and kids, Anadarko is doing to the community.
One more……sorry Nick.
Beware the quiet man,
For while others speak,
He watches….
And while others act,
He plans…..
And when they finally rest,
He strikes……
By man child I am referring to him not making decisions for himself. They both sucked at finances and that stress must have been heavy on both of them. He said in his own police interview that he had screwed up financially in the past so she handled it now. They didn’t dig into it yo see what he meant. I am guessing he was passive and let her make the decisions and began to resent that yet wouldn’t give his input then possibly blame her for any bad decisions. Yes he may have helped out and done some of the housework. Whose to say it wasn’t bc she was telling him to do those things and not him doing them on his own?They both enjoyed the “lavish” lifestyle. Well you can’t have it both ways by not giving input and then holding it against the other person. NK seemed to do most of the planning for their dates even switching restaurants bc the menu wasn’t to her liking. My best guess is that he never fully formed his own identity and became what others wanted until he couldn’t be that anymore. It is not fair to either partner. He would’ve probably morphed into the fitness and frugral persona NK would be attracted to but he probably would have tired of her too bc again he never formed his own identity. So yes someone who refuses to make decisions on their own are child like. Some of the last texts or lack of texts and sex and communication in the final weeks of her life were extremely manipulative which is what abusers do. Maybe we should be looking back to see what red flags were missed by her so that other women can get out before it’s too late. After all he is the murderer. Maybe her personality was too dominant for him I don’t know many men that would kill their wife bc of it especially when they are coming home to a cooked dinner, clean house and daily sex. I think she was sucked into the stupid MLM crap and could’ve made much more in sales or even being a blogger. She probably spent too much time and energy in the MLM. His issues ran much deeper than her and again I’m sure there were signs something was off with him that is what wr should be trying to figure out.
Have you ever had Sex with someone you hate?
Chris said it was about a year ago he started to hate her.
With her gone….aka.. 6 weeks…new gf…ahhhh, is this what life is supposed to be like…. respect, being able to talk, doing what He wants, not what Shanann would tell him to do.
Get over this “child” issue.
Watch her Videos, listen to her words, read her texts.
Then maybe you might understand better.
I am referring to him not making decisions for himself. >>>Who decided to move to Colorado?
Who decided to have a third child?
Who decided to have an affair?
All of these are huge decisions.
People seem to come into this thinking either something was off with him, or her. But it’s mostly him. Maybe because of their own transference, they don’t like to see the problem as the marriage – as in, they weren’t compatible even if she said or thought they were. They weren’t working well together, even if she said they were. They weren’t loyal to one another, or really looking out for one another, even if she said they were.
I think one of the red flags you refer to that other women might want to look out for before it’s too late – it’s kinda hard to see I guess – is not having any money. You kinda wanna avoid that situation personally and as someone’s partner. It’s tough to know for sure how bad it really was, because Shan’ann’s income remains a closely guarded secret.
You do raise a good point. If Shan’ann was less focused on the MLM she might have noticed her marriage was failing sooner. Maybe if she was more successful in some other job she wouldn’t have had to work so hard at the MLM, and she wouldn’t have needed to take that 6 week trip shortly after falling pregnant.
“His issues ran much deeper than her…”
Think so?
Until the moment he murdered her, she was the one well-known to have issues, even her best friend Nickole thought so. Whereas everyone seemed to get along with him. I guess one can sort of make up reality as you go along. Look at something and decide on which “truth” to focus on, and which one suits you. That’s very popular, and very common it’s just not True Crime Rocket Science.
I think where the whole blame-game argument falls completely flat [where outsiders say he was a lowlife scumbag etc] is that right until the end of her life, even after suspecting he was having an affair, Shan’ann was still desperate to stay married to him. So in that context, choosing to be with someone who – as you say – has serious issues, what does that say about the person who supposedly has none?
I am curious about how he would have married Shannan if he was unable to make decisions for himself. If he was a man chlld, how did he go against his entire families wishes and get married without them? Did Shannan try to isolate CW from his family? I believe his mother felt that way. And isolating and alienating someone from their family is also a red flag of abuse. I wonder what happened between Shannan and his family that the refused to go to the wedding. That must have been another big event like “nutgate” I would imagine.
I think Shan’ann may have come off as disingenuous to Chris’ parents at their first meeting, and it went downhill at that juncture. So imagine you’re Chris’ parents, who I perceive come from humble backgrounds (I couldn’t even understand a word Ronnie said in his interview due to thick, Southern draw), pulling up to Shan’ann’s super grand, custom home for the first time. Shan’ann’s home in North Carolina really did make quite the first impression. If I was a parent, especially of a son, a son who was making around $30K and living in my basement, that would throw up red flags immediately.
I find it uncanny that almost every single one of Shan’ann’s impulses seem to be counter-intuitive in hind sight.
– Her intense focus on custom building a literal mcmansion for just herself to live in, then gets diagnosed with Lupus, meets Chris, and moves to Colorado only 2 years later; abandoning her dream home and leaving all the furniture behind for new owner.
– Having to buy a gigantic, 5 bedroom home in Colorado when pregnant with Bella. My family of 4 plus dog and cat lives in a 1050 SF apt in NYC, and we make between 3-4x more than the Watts. That’s what IKEA is for. Why not buy Nate’s smaller house next door, or a tripped-out townhouse? Bigger is not always better. Don’t see the appeal.
– Not listening to her instincts and her mother, when she suggested to stay behind in NC. I think someone here wrote succinctly that “The Universe was screaming out to Shan’ann to stay away from Chris.”
I think planning to have Cassie, Josh and their family move in with them is insane. Chris and Shan’ann also lived with her friend when their house was being built.
I also find it amazing that Shan’ann’s friend would leave Hawaii with her child, and take care of Shan’ann and her two kids for two months while she recovered from neck surgery. That’s a lot to ask of a friend to pick up her kush life in Hawaii and move in with her daughter. I wonder why Shan’ann’s parents didn’t help her then when she needed them the most? Would Shan’ann done the same for this friend if she was in need like that? Was Shan’ann both giver and taker? A giver? A taker?
–
The wedding was preceded by a fight about the engagement party. Shanann claimed Jamie and Cindy deliberately ruined it because they served food with gluten which Shanann was allergic to at the time (her gluten allergy magically went away eventually). Shanann also accused Jamie and Cindy of not mailing the invitations because hardly any of her friends came to the party. In one of SW’s videos she says she lost all of her friends around the time she met Chris because she was sick, so what friends was she referring to that didn’t show up?
In addition, Shanann had a falling out with Chris’s cousin (the one that introduced them, I believe), maybe this had something to do with his family not attending the wedding.
“SHANANN got their policies through his cousin’s wife NICOLE KENNEDY, so he does not know how much they were.
x SHANANN and NICOLE had a falling out over a money thing.
x He believed NICOLE and SHANANN’s old boss believed SHANANN had embezzled money from the business.
x SHANANN’s old boss owned a bunch of wheel shops.
x He believed the accusation against SHANANN occurred around 2010, which was right before he CHRIS met SHANANN.
x SHANANN and her old boss are still good friends and her old boss has been contacting people around the world about her disappearance.
x He has not talked to KENNEDY for years.” (Discovery page 596)
I think the wedding no show had something to do with “gluten gate” at the shower.
Apparently when Shanann had a barbecue party for all families to meet. While dating.
Cindy was concerned that Shanann was briefly married and Shanann made rude comments about Chris to Cindy. She also saw no love between Chris and Shanann and Shanann and Sandi thought they were something. It’s on the Internet.
Also a post by Shanann….Chris just signed his life away on our house in NC.
Shanann had Bad Credit. She couldn’t sign on the New House.
There were signs, but none which could be termed abusive – if there had, we wouldn’t be trying to get our heads round why this happened. And if there were SW was too busy ‘Thrivin’ to take note of them and she definitely didn’t take the time to work out what they meant. If she couldn’t see how totally contrived his reaction was to the nauseating ‘Oops we did it again’ video then she was in trouble. Not in danger of imminent death but she and her husband had separated long before it got to the point of no return. He’d checked out long before.
My daughter works professionally with victims of Domestic Violence from the time they arrive seeking refuge, often through the Courts, always helping them to put some semblance of a life back together eventually.
What I have learnt from talking to her is that SW was really not in an abusive relationship.
He ‘screwed up financially’ because she said he did, and she wouldn’t have been shy about telling whoever was willing to listen either. He sold a vehicle for less than he owed on it, something like that, and for this transgression he forfeited his right to have a financial voice ever again, she took the reins firmly in both hands. And ran them just as firmly, into the ground.
He should have gone to trial. Yes he should pay for what he did but whether we like it or not, there were mitigating factors in this case and keep in mind when going down the Domestic Abuse route that control of finances is, certainly in the UK, considered abusive and is legally acknowledged as such.
I don’t believe he was behaving in an abusive or even a manipulative way by not responding to her messages. Some of hers were fairly abusive though.
Thanks for your comment Fhiona. Do you mind if I publish your comment as a Guest Post?
If anyone wants to know what abuse from a wife looks like, they need look no further than this interview of Mary Kay Letourneau and her rape victim-turned-husband Vili Fualaau – a review of it with a link to the interview: https://www.patheos.com/blogs/withoutacrystalball/2018/09/12873/
The control she exerts over her husband is quite pronounced.
I never read the year ago? Where is that info coming from? I do remember a text where she said he told her she wouldn’t be able to walk after their break bc he was going to have so much sex with her. By many accounts he wanted to try for another baby and then quickly regretted it. I never said she was perfect but he married her. She pushed him to get fit bc of risk for diabetes which probably built his confidence and that may be when he started to pull away. No way NK would have wanted the old Chris. We don’t really know how she spoke to him since she deleted most of the texts but sending him nudes was probably exciting. They were in the beginning stages where you are in a fog I believe she was also a strong personality as well so who knows how they would’ve ended up treating each other. My point is that SW personality probably did not cause this tragedy and we should be looking for any red flags. Homicide is the leading cause of death in pregnant women and that is one fact you can’t dispute. Would divorce have been easy of course not. We need to see what made a supposedly loving father and husband took this route so others may see signs in their own relationships. The only reason to kill someone is self defense and this was not one of those cases. Yes SW behaviors could have been part of the perfect storm and helped him back up his decision to kill but I believe it is deeper than that and is his defect. Loving parents do not murder their children. Truth is that this loving father had already become distant with his own kids and my guess is to justify in his mind why they had to die too. I’m just trying to give an alternate opinion than the SW was awful….that seems to be prevalent on this board. Like I said I have enjoyed many of the articles and insight into their relationship but maybe we can explore other avenues.
Long time lurker, first time poster…
NUA is saying that HER first house was in her name. This was a 3-way conversatio with NUA, Cassie, and Shan’ann (you can see Nickole’s name above the comment referring to “getting” the house). Greeley is in Colorado, and Shan’ann’s first house was in North Carolina.
Good points Nick. I still think this was bigger than their financial issues and since he murdered them then yeah I would say there was more going on with him than we are privy to. He was not as open with his emotions or issues like SW. He went totally into the Thrive thing as well even talking to detectives about what a great product it is and to NK. It was after they started Thrive that he started working out more and losing weight maybe this is when he shifted his personality. SW even made comments on him being more outgoing than he was before Thrive. He also was having sex with SW multiple times a day before she left and then with NK. Is there a possible sex addiction? Or possibly he was obsessive in his own ways (i.e. sex, Thrive supplements, exercise) that can better help to understand the situation? I will try to find a link on a reddit thread I came across. It was from someone who supposedly knew him as a child and provided neighborhood kids and parents names. It gave a bit of insight of him as a child. If true it might help in understanding him better. Again it is reddit so there a good chance it is bs but it sounded like it could be reliable. Anyway like I said it might give some more insight. Personally I don’t think he is some cold calculated person who just wanted to kill and waited for his chance. I think he may have struggled internally with his own mental issues and those along with the financial trouble, his double life going to be exposed and his obvious lack of communication and conflict management skills created a perfect storm of a tragedy. I agree that financial strain is one of the primary or common factors in family annihilation cases but since there are lots struggling financially and not killing their families there must be some other main factors to look at. Again thank you for taking the time to research and provide what you have found in the discovery documents. I have looked forward to new insights you have provided.
When a man is working out a lot and getting really buff, he often has the capacity for lots of sex several times a day concurrent with that change. The sex drive ramps up the more he works out. So this could have been in the mix.
You can leave if you don’t like it.
Lol never said I didn’t like it just trying to provide a different perspective but if differences are not welcome on this thread I’ll gladly leave. I’m sorry if I made you uncomfortable Shannon. Have a nice day.
Omg, don’t leave on my account. Your saying you don’t like the direction of the comments.
There are sites, I’m sure strictly for Shanann.
I mean I myself had negative reaction to my comments…. doesn’t bother me.
I can take the good, bad and ugly.
So please stay.
Shannon, thank you for your response I appreciate it. I may have misinterpreted your comments. I am not pro SW or pro CW. I was just looking for more perspective on CW personality and motivations than the typical SW did xyz which made CW do xyz. I was a Psych major so I am naturally trying to figure out people and what makes them tick. Since the murders were so unexpected that is probably why I want to figure him out. I can see this may not be the place to find that info and that’s fine. I am going back to happily lurking and continue to form my own perspective on this case 🙂 Thanks for the respectful discussion.
After so many years of Chris Watts marriage and perhaps his life. I don’t think he realized, maybe the grass is greener on the other side. His method of elimination, of course was not right.
Feelings and emotions do change over time, but in this case, like thousands out there, not for better or but for worse.
By eliminating the kids, once you take out the parent, you might not want anyone to have the kids. Most killers do go to jail. Then what, kids in limbo, grandparents step in. He figured probably her parents would get. His parents, maybe not interested in raising 2 sick young kids.
Since he hated Shanann, maybe he hated her parents also…..deeply rooted.
Once he gets the Taste of another woman, snoops around the house, Bills agalore, losing house, going to Court no more daycare, new baby, Shanann not being able to work, previous bankruptcy, arguments at home, seperate bedrooms, kids talking back, wife disrespecting you ( long time). Plus he knew her very shady history.
There’s no way, he could talk to her, it’s like the Expression…Talk to the Hand…Shut Up…and Fuck You.
He seen her freak out, get nasty, stomp around and mostly…..Not interested in what you have to say.
He might have tried, in his own way. I’m sure he did, then figured, fuck why bother.
You can only try so long, no feedback….walk away, leave.
He was not a happy man. If they lived, all the above BS, but now Court, support, no home, a apt, shitty car, his money paying her. Peace, but not really peace.
Shannan back to parents, distance, would he really ever see the kids?
He had about 20 more years of her BS, till the kids finished school.
Eliminating all, poof…. no more.
He wasn’t Crime smart, so his stupidity sealed his fate.
As for “fixing* problems after the killings…..he had no time…because of her friend.
I once said, I’m surprised he didn’t scream or get in the truck and drive away.
That’s the stuff we know.
We can’t get into his mind. No matter how hard we try. We are not him.
This is true. I think he probably resented both her family and his . I think he hated confrontation and harbored a lot of resentment of both real and perceived wrongs and starting seeing her actions and the children’s in a way that fit his perception. He saw the children favored her and cried for her if they facetimed instead of thinking about it rationally he saw it as an affront to him. I can see him being the type to get his feelings hurt and instead of expressing it holding it in and punishing the person in ways they don’t even realize like not doing something little that most people wouldn’t notice and then get mad they didn’t notice. He also seemed emotionally immature as evidenced in some of his writings to NK. SW had always had the control in the relationship. In the mean time their finances were a hot mess. She left and he liked the new freedom he started the physical affair with NK things were exciting. He didn’t have his normal responsibilities and he started pulling away from SW bc then he would be cheating on his mistress lol. SW is very open about her feelings and he knew he was hurting her and maybe he realized he didn’t feel guilty about hurting her. I think in those weeks where he went from cold to lukewarm with SW he saw what kind of control he had over her emotions and he liked it. He enjoyed stringing her along. He was the one in control for once. SW had a range of understable emotions during this time. I believe some of her forceful texts occured after he had not communicated with her and she was just trying to get some answers from him. She had plenty of communications with her friends and him about wanting to make the marriage work even stating she might be too bossy and was willing to change. Old habits are hard to change I know but at least she acknowledged she might have a problem. I believe after the FU texts was a text to her friend telling her to reveal the baby gender to cheer her up. She told the friend not to post on SM and to tell CW at the same time. This tells me that she wanted to take his feelings into account even though he had not done that for her. After they found out it was a boy she told her friend they had the best talk in a long time and chosen the baby name. She said he was willing to work on the marriage. When she went the final weekend I think he was playing with her emotions again she was distraught. Her friends encouraged her and told her if she had to she could move on and be ok. I think with her personality she would have been able to move on. She got the restaurant alert and I think her suspicions were confirmed about the affair. At that point she had been through emotional hell and maybe decided that is where she draws the line and she is done. I have been to the point where you’re not even angry anymore just tired and done I think maybe she was at that point. She came home confronted CW about his affair. Even if he didn’t admit it she knew. He realized she was done and he would no longer be able to enjoy his control over her. Before that moment he had 2 women who wanted him and in that moment he realized he would probably lose them both and be left on his own and not be able to pay for anything for himself. So he took the last bit of control he had over her which was taking her life. He decided that either way he was losing control of his life. One scenario lets SW and the girls live with him being controlled by her and the family courts the other is by the court if he gets caught and he chose to chance it and take the latter. He took a chance he wouldn’t get caught and could maybe keep NK. I think he was able to kill the girls for both your reasons and his resentment of them and justification of why he pulled away from them in the first place. Now there are some indications he was contemplating this before that moment so who knows. Maybe he killed the girls first after he realized she would know about the affair as a way to take away what was most important to her and enjoy his newfound control.
“She told the friend not to post on SM and to tell CW at the same time. This tells me that she wanted to take his feelings into account even though he had not done that for her. ”
Except I recall her text that “He doesn’t deserve to know.”
(to Stacy and Oscars comment) I think that It was important to SW to be present when the gender was revealed to Chris, to gauge his reaction and whether or not he was truly interested in the child.
Oscar, sorry I forgot about that text. If my husband told me he didn’t want the baby and had shown little to no interest in the pregnancy I’d probably feel the same way. At any rate she did decide to include him in the reveal. Carly I agree she also probably wanted to see if he appeared happy with the result.
Well….okay. uhm.. interesting comment I must say…. lol.
I don’t think Shanann was done with Chris. I don’t think they talked that night..yes I think he killed kids first. Then her.
He played with her emotions to probably shut her up. He really wasn’t interested in her texts, calls. Sometimes not responding. Sometimes we say or do things to calm or stop the other, from going on and on. He was buying time. I think most men keep their feelings guarded. Shanann said what she wanted, no thought for the other. As we see with her Thrivers….you love me…they didn’t.
Yes he had lost control of his life. I think he realized this, while she was away.
I think she was petrified, of losing him.
You think, almost 3 kids, no big house, no fancy cars, trips daycare. No husband. She now was losing the Control. It would be scary for any parent, seeing this. I don’t think they had meaningful talks. I don’t think she listened….to anyone.
We sometimes learn from our mistakes, I know I do. Shanann just kept going, not looking left or right….just straight ahead.
Some talk about Chris’s upbringing…..but nobody talks about her upbringing. She left home, young, numerous jobs, Numerous moves. Why did she leave home? Was there problems…too many rules. She wanted better then her upbringing. Nice house for example. Her parents live in a so…so…house. I think drinking, smoking there. She wanted better, many mistakes along the way. 1st marriage, divorce. 2nd marriage, told Chris, hey I can’t have kids….well, wrong. I don’t think she has or had lupus. Her story, about having kids hard, but 3rd super easy….thrive baby….come on…
please.
Here was a woman, 2 personalites. One . Videos…all lies to her few followers. A front to her friends, those who knew her.
Two. Someone who was not happy with herself. If you are a confident, happy person, there’s no reason to lie. Remember Chris probably really knew her, her ways her faults, her goodness.
She got to cocky, to confident, lying.
It will all come back to those.
In Sept 2018, she knew, they were no longer going to have their home, she knew they were going to be standing on the street. Did Chris know this? I don’t think so. But I think he soon found out.
I don’t understand, when she felt there was a Real problem with her marriage.
Why didn’t she just go home, with or without the kids. Go to a park, restaurant, sit calmly and both talk. .
hindsight I guess.
I wonder why things happen in our world to certain people. Is it a lesson, for the survivors.
I don’t think so really, because every day there is evil, everywhere.
Why. We can’t learn, because we are only one, we are not everyone.
You bring up some good points. However she did consider leaving him, selling the house and taking the girls out of school which was in her text to a friend. She was thinking about cost of living and wondering how much rent would be. I think it was a real option for her to leave. Maybe not her first choice but she was at least considering it. Maybe the return tickets were already purchased and the change fees were something they couldn’t afford so she didn’t go home earlier. Or he was stringing her aling just enough for her to believe it was going to be ok. After all she was hormonal and probably second guessing her doubts. They both sucked at finances-him by his own admission and her by her actions. She was probably trying to fill some void with all the material things. He was immature so maybe that’s his reason. She asked him if he wanted a divorce and he said something like, “not right away”. That should have been enough for her to end it right there. They was no indication he wanted out of the MLM and was a victim to it. I think you had a good point and he probably would have found justification for killing her no matter what type of person she was because that is who he is. Found this in an article about pregnant women and homicides and I think it fits this case well. “Research shows that men who kill their partners do so because they feel out of control in their lives, and this is seen as an act of control.” As far as her illnesses I am on the fence. I read that they used fertility meds for their first 1 or 2 but I am not certain about that. Most doctors won’t start even the slightest fertility medication until after a year after trying unless your are over 30 and have a history of infertility. It took my husband and I over 2 years and 3 rounds of oral meds for our first, meds and 2 miscarriages (stopped pharma meds) and took 2.5 years of trying for our 2nd. The oral meds are the lowest type of hormonal fertility medication and I can tell you the side effects suck. If they used more invasive methods it was probably not done for the heck of it. Maybe they lied about the treatments but I thought it was in the bankruptcy info. With our third we were not actively trying, I was still nursing my 2nd and only had 2 cycles and got pregnant at age 37 So these things do happen. I also had lost weight and SW had also lost weight so maybe that was a factor.
I don’t know about fertility treatments. I was a fast baby maker.
I find it funny, supposedly they need help with getting pregnant, than a miracle….thrive.
I need a new topic now…….lol.
Stacy, I’m sorry.
Sometimes the non trivial stuff doesn’t thrill me. I have a low tolerance for that. It’s just me.
I get bored quite quick, and I find my mind needs stimulation about the nitty gritty.
I don’t think they had “fertility treatments,” as Shanann asserted. Much less 17k worth as some people have stated, from what Shanann told them.
Bella was conceived within 3 months of marriage. CeCe within a year of Bella’s birth. That is not an infertile couple.
It is possible to get a cheap and common “fertility” pill – Clomid – by saying you have irregular periods. So someone could run with that and say it’s a fertility treatment.
There were a few small medical debts in the 2015 BK. Most were retail and general credit cards.
Lol I understand and was just saying if the fertility stuff was in the bankruptcy report then it probably wasn’t faked due to most doctor’s protocols for that type of thing 😉
Their HOA, Wyndham Hill, would not have allowed another un-related family to move into the house. Just like all HOAs. Josh and Cassie and how many kids and cars? That would’ve been shut down within weeks.
The fact that Shanann even considered it is mind-boggling. But since she didn’t pay her HOA dues, I guess she wasn’t invested in the HOA.
I don’t think Shanann knew about that particular rule in her HOA…I wouldn’t have known either, and her parents, who stayed only 15-16 months with them, and the Rosenbergs, who texted Shanann and said they would be there at the most for no more than 1 month (although I’m sure it would have been several months)…were not “moving in” to the house permanently, just staying guests helping with costs. I think that particular HOA rule is to prevent homes to be turned into mini-apartments, where strangers rent the bedrooms, and the livingroom, kitchen, bathroom, etc. are considered “common areas” available for the renters to use. I rented one of these bedrooms while in college…they do it to increase the $$$ they make by renting to several people instead of one family that wouldn’t pay as much. In the meantime, all the extra cars clog up the driveways and side streets, and the renters are mainly single young people so their conduct also might not be the best (coming in drunk, parties, etc.). So I think that’s why HOA’s have that rule. If the divorce would have come and another Thrive family would have moved in to help Shanann and the kids out after CW left (which I wish he had done instead of killing them), I don’t think the HOA would have said anything…it’s mainly to prevent homes bring turned into mini-apt. buildings. As far as the relationship Shanann & Chris had is concerned, I think Stacy has it absolutely right. R.I.P. Shanann, Bella, Celeste, and Nico.
Marriages where sex is the top priority usually end in divorce. You can’t build a solid marriage on that sort of thing.
It’s sad how many ppl r living the same scenario!
I’ve read on another recent crime blog that Chris was taking the new Thrive Duo Burn and he was so hopped up that he wasn’t sleeping at all. I wonder how much the drugs in his system led to his change in temperment and the final sad outcome.
It’s very simple. It is not about Shannan and her spending, it’s about a man (a coward) at that, drugging and killing a pregnant woman he swore to love and protect. O.k. so he decides he wants a co worker, great. He thought about killing a woman who bore his children and his own flesh and blood. Who cares about thrive, or a house in NC or a house in Colorado, how could you possibly kill your two young children? Go, run to be with your mistress, have a nice life. Let your wife and children live. He is beyond ignorant. Does he think his mistress is sleeping alone today? Who cares about that too. Everyone who is posting should think about what if it was your sister or nieces? Shannan’s family is much better than mine. It would be no mercy for him on this earth.
I followed the news but I had to watch the documentary to get further insight.
I’ve covered a few murder trials, watched my fair share of police interviews and interviewed suspects but I had to watch different aspects of the doc to watch CWs body language, et.al.
I watched it the first time with my husband so I could get a man’s p.o.v.
Myself, I didn’t see a psychopath or master manipulator or even a dangerous sociopath.
Throughout, CW appeared comfortable as a dad, involved, loving. By even SWs own word, he didn’t argue or fight. He simply went along. His responses weren’t hostile or even antagonistic. He was apologetic, expressed love. I didn’t observe passive aggression. Not until he was before media camera & at a neighbors home did I begin seeing a marked change in his body language, facial expressions.
He looked like a deer caught in headlights at the beginning when everyone was becoming aware of SW & babies missing.
CW seemed oddly cool the entire time, that is until learning his neighbor had footage of his truck backing up to the house. Remember?
Think back to CWs body language, the look on his face. I saw pure fear. I think he thought he was busted then. The neighbor wasn’t shy about expressing his thought to the cop that CW was acting weird. The footage of the first few hours everyone realizes SW is missing, I didn’t see her friend looking at CW with a wide-eyed.
From their own early statements, no one–her friends, his employer, their families–ever expressed any concerns that CW may have done something to SW.
While it’s evident SW was telling friends she was suspicious: no sex, his odd distance, etc. she & Chris weren’t being openly hostile to one another or at least we haven’t seen/heard of any texts where SW said they were “at war.”
SW consistently (no matter how bad or suspicious she got) expressed deep love for Chris in her texts. I don’t know if she was/wasn’t messing up their finances or if she was/wasn’t mistreating him. Her texts to friends, family were always filled with how much she loved him.
I don’t quite buy that the mistress alone drove him to murder. I think it could be that he did confess to her and Shannan went off. She probably gave him the “business” after he told her of the affair. What (pregnant) wife wouldn’t?
He probably panicked after seeing her get angry, and if she told him he’d never see his kids again, maybe it caused him to snap.
Or maybe he drugged, strangled her as soon as she nodded off then smothered his babies to avoid dealing with SW’s wrath and probably the heat from her friends, family when his affair/lies were uncovered.
was emotionally unavailable by that time because he’d already begun crossing the line.
I don’t believe the
I don’t understand SW and it makes looking into this case extremely frustrating. I don’t believe she deserved to be killed but I do believe that her behaviour contributed to CW snapping. Why were her kids in daycare 5 days per week from 7-7:30 until the late afternoon when she portrayed this lifestyle working from home with her kids? CW picked those babies up everyday after a full day at work. They couldn’t afford that expensive daycare, I understand putting them in 1 or 2 days for socialising but 5 days a week all day? What did SW do all day? Social media, eating out, catching up with friends, clean the house, spend above their needs? CW busted his a** all day so she could run them into the ground and spend next to no time with her babies. CW had those kids and babysat others so she could go on these business holidays all the time. SW pushed him onto her social media knowing he is a introvert, wrote many disrespectful statuses making fun of him. All these illnesses she claimed both her and her children had, typical Munchausen syndrome. Racking up unnecessary medical bills. Whenever the girls were sick, CW had to call off work. Why couldn’t she handle them without him around? Whenever those kids were home, he had to be there to help her. Many posts of her talking about him calling out to care for them while sick and she was running errands and “networking”. SW portrayed this hands on mother and wife but everything she did, she did for social media. The home renovations/decorating, hospital/doctor visits, everything she ever did while with the kids was documented and posted for recognition. She accused CW mother of trying to harm those girls yet there are countless photos of her daughter sleeping with blankets wrapped around her neck, pillows on her face right from only being a few months old! Those photos made my skin crawl. You don’t ever let a baby sleep in such a life threatening way, let alone one who you claim is asthmatic. Running a red light with your babies in the car? Does all this sound like a woman who was really concerned over nutgate or was she just looking for a reason to cut his family out of their life’s? A over protective mum with two sick kids doesn’t work from home, put her kids in care for over 40hours a week and put her children at high risk of SIDS. SW is as much of a liar as CW. If SW wasn’t murdered, it was only going to be a matter of time before her online image that she created for herself would have came crashing down. People moving in might have delayed them loosing the house but keeping those kids in daycare, buying all those shoes/clothes, the holidays (the paid for ones still cost a lot of of pocket), all the excessive spending to look better off was what needed addressing to avoid losing it all. Did CW know SW wasn’t paying the HOA when they decided to have another baby? Why was SW spending all this money and not paying the homeloan when she was pregnant? Why did she care about having and posting materialistic things over providing a roof for her children? Why was she shocked that CW lost care for her in this relationship? Their life was crumbling down and I can’t help but wonder how different their life would have been if they got some financial advice. Financial failure can push people over the edge into doing evil things and this situation was a disaster waiting to happen. Those poor babies!
I listen to all the Chris Watts defenders and as a man I am sick to my stomach. Chris Watts isn’t the only guy who married someone he wished he hadn’t. Real men with a soul file for divorce and pay child support. 99% of men who divorce never murder their wife then dump these two angels in an oil tank then go text their girl friend and talk about the future. It takes a distinct sort of disturbed evil to cross that line. Even prison inmates who murder could never kill their daughters. Chris Watts was a volcano steaming for an eruption. Animal or monster speaks kindly of this character.