True Crime Analysis, Breakthroughs, Insights & Discussions Hosted by Bestselling Author Nick van der Leek
In POST TRUTH, the 100th True Crime Rocket Science [TCRS] title, the worldās most prolific true crime author Nick van der Leek demonstrates how much we still donāt know in the Watts case. In the final chapter of the SILVER FOX trilogy the author provides a sly twist in a tale that has spanned 12 TCRS books to date. The result may shock or leave you with even more questions.
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Such a tough question for him – so tough in fact, he can’t answer it
Now compare that question to the one asked on the 14th on his porch – what were his children wearing to bed 8/12 – he knows the answer to that for 8/11, but not 8/12 – lots of sputtering and muttering like above
For some reason for me the audio is so bad that I can’t hear a word that she or he is saying. Does she ask if Shannan wore shorts to bed?
I don’t think she ever made it to bed, and I do believe it’s the same shirt in the doorbell cam as the one she was buried in at Cervi.
What annoys me is when people say in the doorbell cam footage S was checking the baby monitors via her phone, they claim they can see it. Then I check online and it’s stated that all baby monitors now can be accessed by phone. Why then didn’t she access them from Arizona? How did he have them in the basement? Confused. š”
Summer, Inc. baby monitor 28640
I did find a notice where certain models were discontinued as of June 27, 2018 for internet viewing, and from the discovery files, you can see the serial number and model number for the Watts’ baby monitor.
Thanks very much for that info. So her model presumably discontinued internet viewing. I would think she was the type to want that feature badly with her travel and her proclivity to want state of the art technology. But one never knows….š¤
I heard her ask, did Shanann ever go to bed. But I can’t figure out what he says.
His hand is near his mouth.
I’m surprised Shanann didn’t ever have full cameras to see the on goings in the house, when away.
But then there’s no privacy at all, if she did.
Shannon, It sounds to me like he said “think that…I I put her back into bed”
Hi Karen.
It’s kinda hard to really hear, all being said.
I read in reddit that the shirt she was wearing has the word LOVE on it. And the one in which she was buried in is a Victoria’s secret with a heart in it. which can be seen in this link https://poshmark.com/listing/White-Purple-Ombre-Silver-Heart-Peace-Sign-TShirt-5aa7543ea825a6db69fca5ee.
I agree! Shirt shown hanging in evidence locker is not the shirt she wore coming home. I’ve tried to make the blocky font of the LOVE shirt match the inside out font of the evidence shirt and it just doesn’t. I do however see the long sweeping sides of the heart shape in the evidence shirt. Also, the necklines are ever so slightly different. I think Shan’ann was interrupted in the middle of her nightly “get ready for bed” routine – evidenced by the change of shirt, the make-up smears on the pillowcase and Chris’s comment about the mascara running down her face.
So Anna you see nothing strange in this response from Watts. Basically irrelevant?
Sorry for my delayed reply. Hard as I tried I could not make out exactly what was being said in the referenced clip so I tracked down the corresponding transcript – Discovery page 608. Agent Tammy Lee: I asked Chris if Shan’ann ever went to bed and he said “all of that was true”. I then backtracked to get a better understanding of what “all of that” was according to Chris. In short, Chris states he feels Shan’ann get into bed soon after her arrival, he wakes at 4:00 a.m., he wakes Shan’ann up at 4:15 and trouble ensues shortly thereafter. I had to cogitate a bit on wether I considered his response strange and/or irrelevant. I don’t view this particular response to Agent Lee’s question to be any more strange, relevant or irrelevant than anything else he stated previously or after. I find it difficult to fairly attribute any sort of relevancy to anything Chris says. Why? Because I am unable to distinguish his lies from his truths, his facts from his fictions or any other combination thereof. I do believe he has told some lies and he has told some truths; but with the information made available up to this point I can’t with any degree of specificity tell them apart. I think I have to give equal weight to everything he says, try to flesh out what I believe to be the truth combined with and based on the available information/evidence – which I think we can all agree is sorely lacking. I’m missing something, right?
“Iām missing something, right?”
I don’t think so, Anna. If so, someone else can set us all straight. But one of the things that’s probably making your spidey senses tingle is that CW *appears* to insert factual information into the wrong scenarios. Thus, while the scenario thus feels more “realistic”, at the same time it sounds kinda WTF. Like when CW describes how he had to be careful to awaken SW in a particular manner, by “rubbing her back and shoulders”, I find a scenario where he seduced SW into lying on the bed (or somewhere else) face down (and thus much less able to fight back) on the premise of a back rub (she’d posted something on Facebook about how much she wanted a back rub – some meme-ish type thing) and then used his positional advantage to strangle her much more easily.
Not everyone agrees on the back rub scenario, but it seems to fit the data to me.
So listen carefully to what CW says – he’s likely inserting truth where it doesn’t fit. Like when he says that he saw Bella on the baby monitor and she was “blue” because SW had strangled her? SW never strangled anyone! Bella was blue because of the Oxycodone CW drugged her with and the plastic bag he likely placed over her head! And the baby monitor did not show color anyhow, so he couldn’t have seen “blue” through that medium.
So the “Bella was blue” detail was fact; it was just inserted into a narrative where it didn’t fit. Watch for these.
There is also a picture of her wearing the evidence shirt and holding one of her Thrive shakes. I tried to share the link but it said was no longer available but it is because I just viewed it. weird.
“the make-up smears on the pillowcase ”
Please note that, while there is residue of some sort on the pillowcase, this has not been positively identified as “make-up smears”. The pillowcase was found in the trash; it could just be trash juice.
Gina, make yourself an IMGUR.COM account. There, you can copy/upload either the image address or the image itself and then have a PERMANENT copy that you can then post wherever you like. It’s very easy.
What you hear Watts doing is sputtering an answer that isn’t an answer to the question Agent Lee put to him – Watts is attempting to deflect by talking about her clothes being either on the bed or in the room – even with headphones it was tough to make out. We hear him doing this multiple other places, either providing information that wasn’t asked for, or giving information for the sole purpose of deflecting his answer – and you know we all do this. Using words as decoys. Even if we aren’t covering up a murder. But just a word of advice – take what people say on social media with a grain of salt, do you own research, and listen to those who have done theirs (like here).
True, we do all use words as decoys when necessary.
As regards the other, it wasn’t the words on social media; I know how rumors are to be ignored.
No, what bothered me is that I did in fact do my own research: and found that baby monitors can be accessed by phone.
This info has nothing to do with the Watts case. It’s stated in sales ads for baby monitors, they can be viewed via wifi on your phone.
So if Shannan had Alexa, Vivint, smartphone, Apple Watch, she was tech savvy enough to know she could view baby monitors via phone. So now I’m confused as hell. Really confused š.
Consider the fact the kids are 3 and 4 and the baby monitors are older than that. There is your answer. They were not the latest technology.
Thanks. Understood.
It seems to me that CW took a lot of risks because just loading up dead bodies in my vehicle and driving somewhere would scare the hell of of me. I would be afraid at any time that police would pull me over and how do you explain the stuff in the back seat. It is hard to believe that she would have been allowed to go to bed because the risk of her finding her children dead and calling 911 would be huge but maybe he was able to overcome any fear of risk because of something that caused him to completely detach from what he was doing? And I can’t explain the baby monitors either because if the children were already in bags ready to be loaded in the truck, she should have noticed that they were not in bed. Or if he had them together in one bed covered, maybe she just accepted that. I was reading about a teen who was murdered in her room by another teen and the mother didn’t notice right away that her daughter was dead until she pulled the covers off her.
I don’t know why, but I do feel so much empathy for her not being able to just go home and sleep as I am sure she must have been exhausted but who really knows at this point what actually happened?
Off topic a little bit but I can’t help noticing the ceiling in the dining room in the above photos are not purple. The police cam shows very dark purple ceiling and I thought I read somewhere that she loved purple. Wonder who painted the ceiling cuz that is a lot of work. I can’t imagine being pregnant and painting a ceiling.
Right, to murder itself is a massive risk. In all his actions since SW left for AZ he was taking one risk after another. Not only transporting the bodies but disposing of them at work!
Yes, how is it that the police cams show purple but these pics white?
He sure is having problems coming up with an answer.I donāt think that is an interior photo of her house, at least not when the crime occurred, The flooring is all different, the rails are different as well, and the dining room color on the walls. Maybe this was just meant as an example of the layout, cause that is the same.
Hmmm, I thought it looked different, too.
“maybe he was able to overcome any fear of risk because of something that caused him to completely detach from what he was doing?”
I imagine that the murders caused Chris to feel extremely *POWERFUL*, at least for a little while. He’d already pulled off the most difficult part; he could easily do the rest.
But then she did ask for pictures of her girls 8/12 and Chris didn’t want to disturb them – or bother with it, CBH – being able to see her monitors remotely would preclude the necessity to ask Watts for a picture. I’m starting to get this nagging weird thought that he murdered them very shortly after the birthday party. It’s not nailed down what time he left the party – around 3:30, or arrived home. Again, if we had all footage from Nathan’s camera from all day 8/12 it would be helpful.
Frank calls in at 5 p.m. MST, he sees Bella but doesn’t see CeCe. Could Watts have produced an earlier facetime video? Since I’m a tech dummy I don’t know how that could be done, but he was taking other odd pictures – like chicken and refrigerator thermometer shots. His first text to Kodi Roberts is at 5:06. At 5:23 he texts “I can go out there though.” When others have tried to affix a murder time for the girls it has to be after 5 due to the facetime video with Frank, and what, after he’s confirmed with Kodi that all signals are go for a burial ground. But if the girls were already dead before he texted Kodi was Watts just trying to find a reason to go somewhere work related for burial purposes – and if Kodi had not agreed Watts would take Cervi 319 I think he would have found someplace else – or made another call regarding another Cervi location. So long story short, could the facetime call with Frank have been staged in some way, and why didn’t Frank see CeCe (isn’t she usually right by Bella or not far behind) and does anyone want to consider that the girls were murdered on the way home from the birthday party, or soon after. Or at least drugged. The fact that Watts cannot recall (and is trying to deflect) what they were wearing, before bed, is a telltale sign, to me, that he did not get them ready for bed. And in essence, no one was allowed to go to bed that night.
Yes, of course if SW could view the baby monitor on her phone she wouldn’t request such pics from Chris, obviously. šJust puzzling as to why she didn’t make sure she could, etc.
Interesting thoughts. I assume FaceTime could be staged briefly. It’s a thought worth considering, yes. He would be alone with them in the vehicle and drugging them would be easy with a drink and a quiet car ride.
He was at that point expecting Shannan 3 hours earlier that evening as there was no delay yet known.
What you propose is quite possible. Wouldn’t police certainly have viewed the Nathan video of that Sunday afternoon? š”Another discovery item to ask for!
She also asked the babysitter for information about the girls too, if I remember correctly one question was about how they settled for her?
Yes, I think so. It’s obvious her phone gave her no access to any goings on in the house.
Hey guys
Just want to bring this to your attention.
This is one of the major drags of running a site like this.
Today I had a falling out with Cheryl, who then emailed me about professionalism, and then left this review [underscoring the professionalism thing].
https://www.amazon.com/gp/customer-reviews/R2L1E47T60BIH0/ref=cm_cr_othr_d_rvw_ttl?ie=UTF8&ASIN=B07N6HDH6C
It’s because of this kind of behaviour that I will be shutting down this site sooner than later. I realize many of you are here for entertainment, or fun, but this happens to be my work and livelihood. The equivalent of this kind of behaviour is your leaving a comment, say, about Trump, that I disagree with, and then I contact your employer and tell him about my gripes, asking that your boss cut your pay.
It’s also ironic that the gripe here is that I’m the unprofessional person in this equation.
Just a friendly warning, if this happens again I’ll be shutting off the comments on all future posts.
“The equivalent of this kind of behaviour is your leaving a comment, say, about Trump, that I disagree with, and then I contact your employer and tell him about my gripes, asking that your boss cut your pay.”
Bloody hell, she’s always been so intelligent, articulate and kind. Could she have been drunk? It’s so unlike her.
Really sorry and am hoping things can work out somehow; would hate to see you shut down this forum.
You must consider many of us to be a problem else you wouldn’t be warning us all. If I’ve done anything to offend you, I can tell you it was unintended.
On the contrary, I’ve considered it an honor to be able to speak with you via this venue and I’ve read nearly every series you’ve written. I did leave rave reviews a couple of years back. Left 2 recent ones and was furious that for some inexplicable reason they weren’t published.
I do consider many to be a problem, not you CBH. But you have no idea how many trolls one has to deal with on a daily basis, not only here but on Facebook, Twitter and Instagram too.
My normal turnaround time for writing a book is about two weeks. Since running this blog, that time has doubled, and sadly, it’s at times like these that I just don’t consider it worth it, or time well spent.
For me, fundamentally, we want to have sober and serious conversations [without being colorless dullards]. Which is why Cheryl’s post today was so weird. It’s also why the terms of this site are to discourage that kind of flippant approach. True crime is about real people, dead people, real victims and ongoing unknowns. It’s only with a fairly strict approach and a consistent focus that we get to the answers. It’s important, I feel, not to lose sight of the fact that these people aren’t hypothetical or theoretical actors, they’re real. They’re out there in the world, and in some cases, decaying to dust in some graveyard because of some motive that remains hardly fathomable.
As soon as it devolves here into petty bickering the whole endeavor becomes pointless. If we can’t rise about our personal differences, we’ll never come close to figuring out criminals who are very different from us [and very similar, as it happens].
There is an aspect about treating true crime as about “the science of man” that I think edifies us, or it can. It’s evidence of society introspecting, healing and perhaps bettering itself. I like to believe that’s what I’m doing, but I know a lot people come to true crime looking for a lighter experience: gloating, transference, picking a side, throwing stones, whatever it is.
CBH that other aspect you raise is another unfortunate reality with Amazon. If you’re commenting here Amazon picks up that our URLs are in contact and then decides you’re not an independent reviewer. So effectively I get sanctioned/punished whatever the word you want to use, for engaging with my readers. It can be a cruel world hey. š
That’s simply wrong, to consider forum members to be biased in favor of you. Isn’t what happened today with Cheryl clearly a contradiction? š¤
I just went back through my reviews. Shockingly, in 2015 after my very first purchase I gave you a bad one star review due to your coauthor, Lisa.
From there, it was 5 stars and hailing you as “Brilliant” and “the genius of the true crime genre” for Van Breda, Peterson, McCann, et al. I was glad to see them still standing.
Really wishing you the very best. Ban the trolls, and I wager Cheryl will soon offer an apology and compensatory offering.
Addendum to my last:
My Drilling through Discovery review was published but doesn’t appear with the other 11??
https://www.amazon.com/gp/customer-reviews/RODE2B0KUARVH?ref=pf_ov_at_pdctrvw_srp
I can see it. Thanks btw.
Most welcome.
That was a very lightweight and seemingly “non-issue” review left. Seems more like your ego got bruised than anything else…[The remainder of this comment has been redacted. You need to be very careful coming here and antagonizing the creator of this site, or deciding what you think is appropriately a “non issue” on my behalf. Having a disagreement here, sending snotty, self-indignant emails and then leaving a malicious review just to make sure a point was scored *isn’t* a non-issue. It’s very, very childish behavior, and even more so for someone familiar with my narratives and my work here. And it’s because of people like you that this site is discontinuing coverage. You’re just further confirmation that it’s just not worth it. ]
Maggie C – to be fair, the review system is a very flawed system and it has often been abused by those wishing to retaliate…because they can. Whether itās a business you own, a service you provide, or a product you sell…you are at the mercy of the consumer with very little recourse. What if business owners, service providers, artists, novelists, etc. were to rate their clients? Then, perhaps, there would be a more reliable, responsible, and respectful system in place that would benefit all. Until your livelihood is easily threatened by a person with a grudge, especially a formally trusted person, itās very hard to understand it cannot be shrugged off as inconsequential. There is a YouTuber out there Mr. Van der Leek has linked to in his blogs who has a pretty basic yet profound tag line, āSay what you mean, mean what you say, but donāt be mean when you say it.ā Constructive criticism can be a good thing, when well-intentioned.
SRC to be completely fair, readers ought to be commenting here with their real names. Let’s see what your LinkedIn profiles say about who you are, your education level and what you do for a living?
Virtually none do, which is why so many are so confident at being cheeky and smart asses. I can guarantee you, face to face in a living room with me they wouldn’t be as smart as they they think they are, and they’d get a real hiding. That’s the hypocrisy of true crime I’m afraid. A lot of people coming along with their attitudes, but still hiding behind an online avatar. They think this veneer of cowardice is different to the criminals we’re talking about here. It’s not. It’s exactly the same.
I donāt have a linkedIn profile. My real name is Cornelia. I have a BA in finance, a BS in accounting, and an MS in nutrition education. I currently own a special event venue focusing primarily on wedding celebrations. I get what you are saying to me.
Lol, thanks for that. It was actually directed at everyone in general but I appreciate you “coming clean”. Good to see we have some university educated folks here. Come to think of it, might be a good rule of thumb going forward – verify all users names and education level.
I’m one of a handful of people on the entire planet that share my name. Besides one in South Africa, all the others are men living in Holland or Belgium, so it’s extremely easy to find me online. (I live where the laws of the universe don’t exist – an apt description btw – lol. And BA in education) Tried to post pictures some time back but took my identifying information out. That’s why they were links to nowhere – sorry about that. Wondered if our email is accessible to the blog owner since it contains my name.
I suspect some trolls are actual huns who are highly offended when presented with the truth about MLM’s..
JC – my name has been relatively uncommon for the past few generations (I often meet people who share they had a great-great whomever of the same name) but Iāve seen it pop up more since becoming a visitor to this site than usual! Iāve begun reading up more on Vincent Van Gogh in preparation for Mr. Van der Leekās narrative as his artistry has always held a fascination for me, and my same name pops up like daisies in his history as well! An interesting side note to me.
Gee, Nick, you seem to have proven yourself to be extremely defensive. I have a BS, MS, PhD. and MD. I made a very fair comment on your site. Yet…you had to “quickly” redact it because it wasn’t showing 100% praise of your response to another individual. Furthermore, you went as far as to threaten free speech of “anyone else” who may make you rethink how you approach people and situations. This proves you will ONLY tolerate and allow perfect praise of yourself and your site….Goodbye! (You bore me now). Maggie C.
Sylvester I believe frank said that during his FaceTime he could see Bella and he could hear Cece in the background.
What I want to know and nobody seems to be able to answer for me (plus Iāve done a tonne of research on post Mortem toxicology findings) is can OXY be seen in a dead body thatās been in crude oil for 3-4 days? Can crude oil totally take away any trace of oxy in someoneās system? Itās really frustrating me that I canāt find the answer anywhere. Does anyone have any idea here?
Donkey Kong, opiates can be detected up to 90 days in hair samples, I believe. Saliva test can show the last 24 hrs from ingestion. It would be according to how much ingested. Faster the metabolism, quicker they leave the system. If the kids were given opiates, they would have went to sleep. I hope that this makes sense.
A quick Google gives this
On average, OxyContin use can be detected in urine for up to 3-4 four days, in blood up to 24 hours, in saliva 1-4 days, and in a hair follicle up to 90 days. However, the true length of time OxyContin remains in the body depends largely on the person’s individual metabolism.
\
Thanks Liz and Marie, š
found that info also but I canāt find what crude oil would do to those results. Iām thinking itās entirely possible that 3-4 days of crude oil wiped out any trace of it especially if they were only given enough to be āsleepyā.
The answer to this information changes things for everyone. Because if they were drugged then we know so much more about the night and what order. So far their toxicology came back clear. But is that actually a true result?
Nick could you weigh in at all? Do you know if crude oil changes results?
“especially if they were only given enough to be āsleepyā.”
Especially if this wasn’t the first “test” of the Oxycodone. That these children were sleeping *so much* is very suspicious – 6 pm – 6:30 pm bedtimes are outrageously early – much of the year, it isn’t even *dark* by then! And on top of them being in expensive “preschool” from 8-4 most days? Shan’Ann wanted to escape from the demands of motherhood. It is under this condition that we would most expect the parent(s) to be drugging the children to get them asleep and out of the way. Look at CeCe’s recurrent tantrums – this is not a happy child! Look at Bella’s dead eyes in so many of the pictures, atop the obligatory limp smile. It’s very likely that Aug. 12 wasn’t the first time the children had been dosed with Oxycodone.
“A quick Google gives this
On average, OxyContin use can be detected in urine for up to 3-4 four days, in blood up to 24 hours, in saliva 1-4 days, and in a hair follicle up to 90 days. ”
That all assumes, Liz, that the individual lived long enough to metabolize the Oxycontin into their tissues. I don’t imagine an overdose would end up in hair – death would have occurred before the hair had a chance to incorporate the drug.
“Donkey Kong, opiates can be detected up to 90 days in hair samples, I believe. ”
marielangford, how many of these samples were taken from victims who died from Oxycodone overdose?
Exactly Ralph!! Thatās my point. How many people have been tested for opioids, namely Oxy, AFTER death and if it came in positive, how long after death did it? And were these people long term users or just a one off?
Iāve been searching testing opioid levels post mortem and I canāt find anything difinitive at all. I need a specialized post-mortem toxicologist pronto!! To speak with and discuss this. Iām going mad here not knowing exactly the facts. I dont believe that Bella and Ceceās all-clear tox reports are actually correct. Unless someone can state otherwise… I just think the crude oil and time past death has possibly wiped out evidence of anything they may of had. If crude oil does wipe out oxy then this almost cements for me that CW did kill them first, whilst distancing himself from the actual murders of them
Nick what do you think?
Excellent question and again, if this case had gone to trial, we would have heard from many experts in different fields and their opinions on these highly technical matters. Very little is known about how human tissue responds to the particular contents of an oil battery (the closest I could find were studies on decomposition in acid baths). However, any narcotic is usually highly lipophlic (easily combine\dissolve in lipid or fats) and therefore are quick-acting and highly effective because they cross the blood-brain barrier so easily and have immediate neurological effect. A valid question in this case that has been raised before, is ‘how accurate would toxicological tests be on narcotics such as opiates?’. Since these bodies were literally soaking in a lipid substance (oil) it is highly possible any opiates present in the tissues could disperse easily into the surrounding oil environment. It would have been very interesting to have heard from an expert toxicologist on this very subject, but I suspect their findings would be inconclusive or highly speculative due to the paucity of research on this unique chemical environment. Regarding hair samples, this is measured in gradations over time. Essentially, exposure to a particular drug, mineral, poison etc can be measured upon how often it appears in different segments of the hair and at what length. Opiate use can be measured if the individual has ingested this substance in the past and in significant quantities to be present in the hair. It is of limited value of it is a one time dosage close to death, but is very informative when dosages have been ingested over time (such as a poisoning with arsenic). The hair examination in a poisoning case can tell you how much an individual was exposed to and of how long a period of time it took place.
Nick discussed the oil tanks on his sister blog last year with an interview with a former cop who works on oil and gas sites worldwide. The expert described how corrosive oil is and its byproducts.
āDecomposition process is chemical, not bacterial. Although R couldnāt say and wouldnāt hazard a guess on how long human bones might take to dissolve, he acknowledged that sulphuric acid is one of the byproducts of sequestration. Sulphuric acid is one of the most effective destroyers of human tissue, after hydrochloric acid.* Unlike human decomposition in air by bacteria and/or organisms, decomposition in this case would be chemical.ā
My thoughts: As a mechanic and someone who worked daily with chemicals, Chris did his homework in choosing the oil tanks as a disposal site. In time he might have tried to process and fit SWās body in the tanks as well. I donāt believe the kidsā autopsies could be accurate after their bodies were saturated in oil and its byproducts for 4 days. The opioids he gave them quickly dissolved in that environment hiding his secrets.
https://shakedowntitle.com/2018/09/14/chris-watts-his-plan-to-turn-blood-and-tissue-to-oil-and-dust/
Thanks for sharing this.
What’s obvious from the discovery is the sheer amount of chemicals that are in the tanks. It’s not just oil, but a host of chemicals. An elite defense team could have argued that simply in the process of draining the tanks, evidence [assuming any was found] was contaminated.
We also know that Luke Epple vented the tanks as soon as CERVI 319 became a crime scene on August 15, and that a lot of oil was discharged into a third holding tank. This venting could also be argued destroyed or contaminated or removed evidence suspended on, or nearby the cadavers.
There is also the fact that an Anadarko worker and a contractor breached the CERVI 319 crime scene on August 14 [before it became an official crime scene]. The contractor vacuumed water from the pit, so this was removed from the crime scene as well. McCoy also said when he visited the site on Tuesday afternoon “the gate was open”. An elite defense lawyer could have a field day with just these circumstantial factors.
Finally there’s the issue of Watts himself “fixing the by-pass line” while he was on site on the morning of August 13th. We can’t be certain when he was on his own and once he had dumped the bodies of both children, whether he would have used the pneumatic pressure functions to stir the contents of the tanks. We do know he was there to fix a leak, and so anomalies in the tank would have been associated with the leak, not dead bodies. But we can also see how he may have activated pressure valves perhaps to speed up the process of chemical degradation, and also to “wash” away evidence, if that makes sense.
“We also know that Luke Epple vented the tanks as soon as CERVI 319 became a crime scene on August 15, and that a lot of oil was discharged into a third holding tank. This venting could also be argued destroyed or contaminated or removed evidence suspended on, or nearby the cadavers.”
Wooooow….so many different ways to look at information/think about things – it’s kinda overwhelming.
“so anomalies in the tank would have been associated with the leak, not dead bodies. But we can also see how he may have activated pressure valves perhaps to speed up the process of chemical degradation, and also to āwashā away evidence, if that makes sense.”
The more information about these tanks that I find, the more diabolical and insidious CW’s plan becomes. It’s truly original – has *anyone else* ever gotten rid of murder victims’ bodies like this?? People like to say that CW was “dumb” because he confessed (and thereby enabled investigators to *find* the bodies), but I look at the details, and it looks freakin’ BRILLIANT to me. If CW had only gotten a *week* before calling in the dogs, he likely would have gotten away with it. Whether a criminal case against him could have been won without any bodies being found would have remained to be seen, and that’s off the table, as we know. It’s been done, but it’s still a hurdle…
DonkeyKong –
Opiates, even when taken daily, have a fairly decent half life. So even if you’re a heavy user, if you stop on Sunday, a urinalysis will show you being “negative” for opiates on Friday. 4 days from the last dosage and youre good and clean, that’s why opiate withdrawal symptoms peak at about 48 hours after the last dosage.
Something to consider – on your standard 12 panel drug test, it doesn’t just say “opiates”. There’s a special column for methadone (a synthetic opioid labeled MTD on a 12 level), one column for oxycodone (semisynthetic opioid, labeled OXY on a 12 panel), opium alkaloids (codeine, diacetylmorphine/ heroin, etc labeled OPI on a 12 panel) and sometimes, although rare and usually you’ll need a special, separate test for it, buprenorphine (synthetic opioid with a long half life to aid in the recovery of opioid dependence, labeled BUP on a drug test).
I don’t know if it would be possible to extract urine from the bladder for a test, I also don’t believe a hair or blood test would suffice in this particular situation as oil is caustic. Actually thinking about it, the bladder may be the best way to go and if possible perhaps the coroner would go this route. I have not as of yet read the autopsy reports in their entirety, however I do hope this answered some of your questions. Great question by the way!
Kodi texted CW back at 6:09 pm agreeing that CW could go to Cervi alone. Since the girls’ bedtime was at 7 he may have fed them a snack that was drugged after that call. He didn’t bother putting them into pajamas. My guess is that he felt safe at dinner time Sunday that no one would disturb him. He planned the murders after the kids were at the party and had Facetimed with their grandparents. SW didn’t usually Facetime since it upset them.
Not sure you could stage Facetime. It’s a video calling app that Apple has locked for their devices only.
That’s the scenario I envision as well, Maura.
I wonder if he was at all worried that Nickole would come in with shanāann. If Shanāann was feeling really rough it wouldnāt have been out of the question, especially being the kind of friend she was to her. Guess if he hadnāt killed the kids yet it wouldnāt matter but I believe he dealt with them before she got home,
Didn’t he see NUA’s car pulling away on the Ring app on his phone? Even if Nicole had come inside it was almost 2 am. She wouldn’t stay long.
I think he was a lot more meticulous than we care to consider. He wouldn’t be dependent on Kodi for the green light to go ahead with it. There was 17 minutes between his first text to Kodi, then his persuasive nudge “I can go out there though.” If Kodi had said no, that’s okay, I’m taking care of it but you can help, or I’ll get there first, Watts knew he could persuade Kodi otherwise but if not, he would move on to something or someone else. He didn’t need the go-ahead to commit his murder. What I don’t understand is how could he be talking to Frank at the same time he’s texting Kodi (5:00 for the facetime; he texts Kodi 5:06). Might Frank have been mistaken as to time? Did Watts delete the facetime from his phone? I have to wonder too why Watts told so many people, as in why was it so important to him, to let everyone know the children got soaked. Their clothes were soaked, their shoes were wet. Yet he doesn’t remember what he changed them into. This is abundantly clear on the video where he’s talking to the rookie officer on his porch. It’s the same sort of non-answer to the question above when Agent Lee asks “Did Shan’ann ever go to bed?” What were the girls wearing that night?
What might have been his motive for making sure all knew they got soaked?š¤
Had Kodi insisted on being at Cervi too, what alternative could he have envisioned.
I will ponder these but would like to hear your thoughts.
There are other Cervi sites. He could have driven a little further to one of them. As is his co workers found it odd he would want to drive an hour to Cervi 319 when all of them usually checked in at the office first. It could be that Kodi was kind of “green” – and Watts thought he could persuade him to let him go there first. I should count how many times he mentions the girls getting soaked at the party. It could be related to embellishing on his story of taking good care of them when he returned home, giving them baths or showers, dressing them for bed, giving them dinner when we don’t know if he did any of that. Shoes were placed outside though,and were still there 8/14. I don’t think you would like to hear my thoughts CBH – there’s a lot of nonsense rolling around in there š You on the other hand, are noble.
“I donāt think you would like to hear my thoughts CBH ā thereās a lot of nonsense rolling around in there š You on the other hand, are noble.”
Balderdash! š
You know, there were so many different sites that CW administered – once the corpses were in his truck, he could just *go* and wherever he ended up by himself, he’d do it there. If Kody met him at CERVI 319, they would have done what they needed to do, and then they would have split up to go to different sites, and CW could have dumped the bodies there. Given the layout of the oil tankers around that area, CW had LOTS of options.
He actually had almost no options, his truck was GPS tracked down to the second. And also had start and stop times on it as well. It also would have been highly unusual for him to simply disappear to a random oil site with no explanation to his co workers,
Investigators simply had to look at GPS maps of his movements that day and find times when he was alone and stopped. That’s where they would look. He gave them an ”X marks the spot” treasure map.
“What were the girls wearing that night?”
IF CW thought he’d need to answer to SW, they would have been dressed in proper sleepwear. However, if he knew SW would never be able to confront him about them being not perfectly arrayed for bedtime, they could have been wearing anything or nothing.
I’m sorry that happened over there with Cheryl.
@Nickvdl I’m sorry about whatever happened with you and Cheryl but hopefully it can be resolved. Many of us value her perspective on the case. A few weeks ago a few posters started bringing politics into their comments and attacked Cheryl for her opposite beliefs. She handled the situation well and let it go.
Also, a few posters so vehemently attack SW whenever they comment they appear to be Watts family members especially when they claim to know things not reported anywhere.
I guess the popularity of the case and your blog brings out the trolls in addition to your many, many fans.
Hi Maura
I appreciate your support.
I’ve known Cheryl for many years actually, through Twitter and through her reviews. This is why what she did was odd, and out of character.
I don’t mind troll reviews by strangers or even by folks I don’t know who simply disagree, or who are perhaps family members and friends. That’s to be expected.
I do mind very much someone who knows me, knows my work, has read many of my books, who has contacted me fairly often privately over email, is a regular at this site, and who feels justified in scoring a point by attacking and undermining my work in order to settle a score. This may feel like a playground to many, but it’s actually my work. I care about it, I built it and it’s my bread and butter. So for someone who knows me to behave in this manner – it’s not only unacceptable, it calls into question whether such a site should exist in the first place.
The idea of this site is to build a community and to introduce my work and expertise, and to allow you to get to know me and each other and to do Rocket Science. If differences arise and they are settled in this manner, then it defeats the purpose.
Cheryl has unfortunately crossed a line and she won’t be coming back.
I may feel differently over the next few days, especially as I am ill at the moment, but my current thinking is to discontinue the ongoing Chris Watts coverage. I may post 1 or 2 more stories I still feel are important, and occasionally report on news coverage, but the daily coverage will now come to an end.
I may at some point continue coverage of another case at CrimeRocket. But one of the problems I find by giving you guys access to my work on a free platform is it also gives you free access to me. That can be a good thing, but it also means I’m exposed to a lot of additional noise that often interferes with and interrupts my work. I’ve been prepared to do that until now.
If I start off coverage of the Kelsey Berreth case in a few weeks, I will probably take a much tougher stance in filtering out the noise. Many feel I have been too tough or strict as it is. What this proves, I think, is that nonsense needs to be censored and rooted out before it gathers momentum.
I don’t mind a very small community of smart, conscientious folks who know how to engage, and it may be preferable to have a much smaller community than a larger one. I don’t have a moderator. The easiest of course would be to remove commenting altogether.
That may not be such a bad idea assuming one of you shared these posts to your social media, and you guys could then comment there [having connected there]. How do you feel about that? I’m open to suggestions.
Dear Nick.
The time you take to research, put together and write, these posts and your comments is alot of work.
Then you doing this again much more in depth for your books, is very time consuming.
Then you trying to have a life, on top of that.
It is alot for one person.
Maybe keep your blog, but weed out who you feel necessary doesn’t need to be here.
The posts, your comments and people’s comments….some comments are very good. Some are not.
It’s a wealth of information.
You have to do what is best for you and your sanity.
Xxoo
I agree with Shannon that you need to do what’s best for you and your sanity. Your being ill now is not helping matters I’m sure so take care of yourself. I think the idea of transferring comments to a poster’s social media may be a good one.
As stated before I was honored to be able to have an exchange with you. Having read so many of your texts – especially the Van Breda coverage – you seemed to me a celebutante or a great personage; it was therefore a shock to be addressed personally. Apparently Cheryl through email and such forgot that it’s usually considered a privilege to have access to an author.
As for the trolls, they were intolerable and all such should be blocked immediately.
Very best wishes in whatever you decide.
Nick, I think you should consider getting several paid or volunteer moderators for this site. They could flag certain keywords, enforce community rules, link to content you’ve already posted, etc. Moderators could send you compelling comments or questions that you respond to in a post or comment once per month. Once they are managing it you can choose how much time you have left to interact with your audience.
Keep in mind that the audience you build on social media is valuable but is controlled by the site owner such as Facebook whose system determines how many people see your posts in their feed. So not everyone who likes the page will see your posts. Most small businesses/authors can best reach their audience only by hosting them on their own website.
I don’t think your audience would want to connect on Facebook as it would have to be under their names, and then their comments could potentially show up in their Facebook friends’ feeds.
Or they could connect on the TCRS Facebook page, or the TCRS Facebook Group.
https://www.facebook.com/crimerocket/
https://www.facebook.com/groups/253166275397542/
That’s also a great way for you guys to be alerted when new TCRS content is loaded, including related news stories, book releases etc.
Moderating via volunteers is an option. Thanks to K’s suggestion I’ve already activated a few additional moderating controls on the WordPress dashboard which should make my work easier. So words like “slut, bitch, whore” for example can automatically filter out those users.
Yes, your Facebook group is an option but people would have to use their real names.
Also, you can cut down the number of posts you do on the Watts case but still do some if covering another case. Maybe once per week as opposed to daily.
I’d prefer people to use their real names. It’s this hiding behind avatars business that leads to so much childish posturing.
I’m only one person, but I’m certainly not the only one who really hopes you’ll reconsider not providing regular coverage of the Watts case. This is my go-to site, where I know I’ll find intelligent posts and enlightening commentary. But, I’m not the one who runs it and has to put all the work into it, so, whatever you decide to do I will respect. Although I don’t post often, I read here constantly. Thank you for these many months of insight, interest, and intrigue! Oh, and I’m now on my second read of Drilling Through Discovery, and I’m still picking up on nuances and details I missed before. Thanks for all you do.
Thanks Laura.
Agree. Many of us read posts awhile before posting, and I imagine some readers never comment.
One suggestion you might consider is blogging at Patreon. https://blog.patreon.com/figuring-out-how-much-you-might-make-on-patreon. Jim Can’t Swim switched from you tube to Patreon, and has about 1500 subscribers in the first month,so it might take a bite out of the time you spend with comment management. I do think there has to be some moderation because I have seen blogs destroyed by a few people without any rules of engagement. I can search for links where other people have written about blog moderation. Also, with wordpress, you can moderate words, such as narcissism, and the comment will not appear until you approve of it.. It does work well from my experience of reading other blogs.
I am sorry that Cheryl has burned a bridge with you because I did appreciate her comments. I don’t think this blog is here for our amusement; I realize it is your work and life. I apologize for reacting to some insults and have decided it’s best not to feed the fire. In any event, I do enjoy true crime and our blog very much.
Those are great suggestions, thanks K. I don’t think I’ll do the Patreon thing just yet, because I earn money from book sales, but worth looking into at some stage. Moderating words is a brilliant suggestion, will look into it.
Great suggestion, K. Iād be happy to pay for this content. This is a lot of work for Nick in addition to his books, and it would be completely fair for him to receive additional compensation.
Donkey Kong, I do know that opiates leave the system quickly, they now have ETG testing that detects drugs more efficiently than the general testing. It would be helpful to know what, if any drug testing was preformed on the girls. The girls did have good metabolism, but if that was the only time they had been given opiates, surely it would have shown in liver test. Wasn’t it mentioned here a while back about hair found in the bed of Watts truck? That hair could have been tested. Seems the authorities got his confession, but did the girls get true justice?
I think hair is the best method for testing but I don’t know if they did sample the hair for drugs. It does seem that the easiest way for CW to have smothered them would have been to drug them. However, one little thing does bother me. The wet shoes he mentioned and giving the girls a bath seems sort of strange to me. I remember a case not too long ago where a mother had to go away on business and left the husband alone to take care of a newly adopted toddler that he had not bonded with. The father killed the little boy in the bathtub because the child would not cooperate and the dad flew into a rage. The children didn’t deserve any of this to be clear. But i think he had mentally detached himself from them and could have smothered them while they were taking a bath. Not as much mess either. Just a passing thought.
Your passing thoughts are always thought out to me, K. And if you could make a connection to his constant references to the kids being soaked, their wet shoes, and a bath that would be most excellent. They apparently did wear the wet shoes home, and there was a towel under the right rear car seat – don’t know which child sat directly behind the passenger side but viewing new slides I noticed a towel under the car seat. During the birthday party Watts is texting NK that the kids are all wet and that he would like to see her that way.
Thanks Sly, I am going to go back and watch the police cams again because there was something about the way CW explained why the kids shoes were outside because they were wet that seemed somehow defensive to me. Hard to say.
Thank you so much for looking into it K! He mentions it so many times. He could have put their little shoes in a bathroom to dry – or right when they came in the garage door – the mud room, isn’t that supposedly what it’s for? Maybe he thought they would dry faster outside, but what was going to be the point, they would never wear them again.
“He could have put their little shoes in a bathroom to dry”
I don’t know about the humidity in CO in August, but given the girls’ respiratory issues, they were running AC 24/7 to eliminate pollens/molds/etc., I’m thinking. They used “rain machines” when they slept, so the indoor climate was well-controlled, I suppose. So if August is humid in CO, the shoes could have conceivably dried *faster* inside the house than outside.
And why? Tidiness habit, compulsion, residual fear of being scolded/humiliated by Shan’Ann – who knows?
I donāt believe the shirt is the same. In fact, I am positive it isnāt. However, I feel absolutely certain of Nickās theory that SW was killed when she walked in the door for many, many reasons.
I couldnāt figure out how SW got out of that shirt she walked through the door in and then… I am going through the process of reading Drilling Through Discovery for the second time, and I came across my answer through Nickās assessment of Chrisās interrogation with Coder. I canāt remember the exact part, (shouldāve made note) but there is good reason to believe that Chris changed her shirt after she was killed. Chris knew through premeditation that his story would require Shanāann to make it to the next morning. He would know that all of SWās friends and any pictures would show her in that specific shirt. He would need her to wear a different shirt when (if) she was found. He also could have done this to hide other evidence. It also explains why she was still wearing that underwire bra when she was found. As a woman, I just cannot imagine going to bed like that. Especially after a long day and a long flight. If she had changed her own shirt to go to bed, she would have taken her bra off.
He didn’t know if her body would be found. However, I think he changed her shirt primarily to get rid of any evidence that might connect to him if it was found. He washed or disposed of her shirt and jeans which would wash away any evidence from him or her death. A second reason for changing the shirt and removing the pants could be that if found she wasn’t wearing the outfit she flew home in.
It’s likely he stripped her of her clothing after death for the reasons your stated Clean Queen. He needed to show that she went to bed, then after the emotional conversation shortly after 4 a.m. she told him she was taking the girls and going to a friend’s house. He left for work, he doesn’t know where she went from there, etc. I’m not of the opinion he changed her clothes because there was a big mess, her body evacuated, etc. He did plop her clothes into the laundry basket however, on the 14th during the dog prep he pulls up an article of clothing, on the top, that was hers, something I at first thought was the black hoodie (since it was so nicely displayed at the foot of the bed on the 15th) but in fact was likely her maternity jeans or black jacket. It’s possible of course he disposed of her clothes, and put other clothes on top of the laundry basket. But I agree, your premise that he changed her clothing to indicate she had come home and gone to bed is the likely scenario. It’s also possible to me that he used the pillow cases, sans pillow, to wipe up after himself – either her face, or matter from her mouth. He certainly seems baffled (video above) regarding any credit card purchase. He’s unaware of it. And he can’t provide an answer if she ever went to bed. She did neither.
I agree, Sylvester. It is wise to pay attention to the way he responds to questions when he is is lying or being deceptive versus when he is telling the truth. As NVDL has pointed out, we begin to see patterns emerge.
“He certainly seems baffled (video above) regarding any credit card purchase. Heās unaware of it. “_________
Shannan likely made the purchase in Arizona and then the 2-2:30am decline of the credit card was a robo-automatic email. I’ve had that happen to me when I forgot a card was maxed out. I go to check and see if the item has shipped hours later, only to see card decline message just appearing. Generally your card is accessed when item is ready to ship, not at purchase.
This is true, CBH. I suppose it is also possible that it could be a subscription-based purchase, where SWās card was automatically charged every 30/60/etc. days.
Yes, that’s also very possible.
Nickole Atkinson told the police that Shan’ann was taking medicine for her migraine headaches. Yet all that was found in her purse was Odansetron, a medication used to prevent nausea after surgery. It has been approved for use with pregnant women who are experiencing nausea – but where was the migraine headache medicine.
Hopefully, she wouldn’t take anything stronger than a Tylenol. Some of those prescriptions can cause severe birth defects. Personally, I would buck up and suffer the migraine in a dark room with a wet wash cloth on my face before taking anything at all. In the 60’s pregnant women were given a anti-nausea med considered safe that caused reproductive birth defects in female babies, up to and including infertility. The potential for those birth defects just weren’t realized for a couple of decades when those babies reached their child bearing years. Don’t even get me started on Thrive products. Her baby would have been a human guinea pig.
https://www.verywellhealth.com/what-medications-may-treat-migraines-in-pregnancy-1719866
I agree JC. My sister takes imitrex to prevent migraines, you take it at first sign, hers she gets sparkles in her vision, however once the migraine is too far it does nothing. But she was not allowed to take it when she was pregnant. Iām also surprised shanāanns doctor was ok apparently with these patches. I just wouldnāt take that risk, even if itās all vitamins,
I agree, I wouldn’t risk it either. I’d be surprised, too, if her doctor approved of the patches. I wouldn’t think so.
“Iām also surprised shanāanns doctor was ok apparently with these patches.”
Do we know that the doctor WAS okay with the patches? See https://crimerocket.com/2018/11/02/shanann-watts-intended-to-brand-baby-niko-and-credit-thrive-for-her-perfect-pregnancy-but-her-plan-backfired/
I don’t think Shan’Ann had run the plan by her doctor, frankly.
I thought that as well because I find it hard to believe a doctor would look at the ingredients in these supplements (which include a few things not listed as part of their “proprietary blend”) and say that something not FDA approved is okay to take. Especially since these woo patches have no iron, something recommended in pregnancy, not to mention they don’t really know how much medicine gets delivered transdermally. It varies from person to person, area of application, etc and the term “proprietary sequential technology” in the patches as well as “proprietary sequential bar technology” (they use “pro” instead of the full word to make it sound better) is meaningless word salad and pseudo science.
I tried to find out what exactly they mean by “sequential technology” but alas, since it’s proprietary there is no in depth explanation of what that actually entails. All I could find was some terrible marketing videos “talking about the technology” behind the bars, but they didn’t talk about anything. It was a poorly made marketing video for the new flavors, and it said “created by the same minds that brought you derma fusion technology, THRIVE Pro, sequential gel technology and more presents Pro Sequential Bar Technology!!” The only company that uses those terms is LeVels Thrive! But I guess that sounds better than “Your MLM overlords just added another product you must stock up on and sell to all your friends” . I’ll link the video below but it’s just so ridiculous, I’m not sure how anyone could seriously think this is ground breaking.
They claim its “Premium Nutrition for a Premium Lifestyle” and that’s what I think drew Shan’ann into this particular MLM after all the other ones. She liked all those special labels, even if technically they meant absolutely nothing. There’s nothing in those bars that you won’t find in an Atkins or Southbeach Diet meal replacement bar, except those are literally a quarter of the cost. They’re low carb as well and actually have more protein and less carbs than Shan’ann’s, which is interesting because they’re meal replacement bars and she used them as snack bars. I’ve seen a few of her videos where she says she had like four that day, and she’s often seen eating them. Each bar is between 320-400 calories, which is high but understandable for a meal replacement bar; However she would eat them as a snack and still have atleast breakfast and dinner, as well as those Thrive Shakes, so that’s quite alot of calories. These women aren’t taught a thing about nutrition or the products, so it’s easy to see why so many don’t lose weight. I doubt if you asked any of them what this “sequential technology is” they’d couldn’t tell you.
I gotta say, the way her supposed friends and family used Shanann and her children’s death to push this predatory business down people’s throats is pretty tacky and deplorable. I saw the 200k goal they hit and what LeVel sent them, basically that just get a different discount and some other useless incentives. No mention of what money, if any, they’ll be making and every month it starts anew. So she would have to consistently sell at that volume or above each month in order to keep those perks anyway. I wonder if her family knew that. It seems that after that goal they stopped hyping it as much, probably because they realized there was no real money in it and would have to keep hawking it to stay at that membership level.
Maybe she didn’t renew the prescription for whatever had been prescribed for migraines. She was already in her second trimester of pregnancy and it would be extremely dangerous for the baby to take anything strong.
I think too JC that she was always looking for some kind of product that would help her physically – which is why she was attracted to LeVel. Her notebook in the nightstand drawer shows she was looking into Nootropics as she writes “Expand. Nootropics smart drugs or cognitive ___are drug supplements. other supplements that improve cognitive function, particularly executive functions. memory, creativity or motivation in healthy individuals.” So then I looked up Nootropics and they are described as “sometimes called smart drugs – are compounds that enhance brain function.” Personally I don’t believe in all that mumbo jumbo, but apparently she did.
Sylvestor, I think that too – she was searching for something, anything that promised better physical health and increased stamina and energy. Her enthusiasm for LeVel was probably greater than she had experienced with all the previous MLM products.
I didn’t know about her notes on nootropics in her nightstand drawer, so thank you for sharing that information. There are some nootropics in the Thrive products, and it piqued my curiosity some time ago, which led me down a bizarre path into nootropics, smart drugs and research chemicals. The proprietary blend in the “vitamins” and patches contain a stimulant called Phenethylamine, aka PEA. It’s listed in the middle of the ingredients so the products likely have small amounts of it, but….look at this:
https://www.reddit.com/r/Drugs/comments/54plrz/phenethylamine_pea_is_the_second_strongest_drug/
It’s in the supplement capsules for both men and women, but a little higher up in the list for men. So then I wondered if there were any other substances out there that potentiate or work with PEA to make its effects longer lasting or more effective. There is – and the only Thrive product that I found containing it is the Black Label Burn patches. There’s a subreddit called nootropics if you want to read a little more about them and the experiences of the people doing this stuff. Some of these substances are extremely sketchy and experimental but completely legal, with no oversight of products containing them by the FDA.
JC – I find this fascinating. Iāve researched nootropics in the past as well. I actually ordered a 7 day Thrive experience (including Black Label patches) a few months ago. I was extremely hesitant to do so for many reasons. However, my curiosity involving this case is pretty extreme. I researched all the ingredients in Thrive and decided to start the āexperienceā by only taking the womenās capsules to start. I felt no difference whatsoever that first day. A little less intimidated, I decided to do the entire trifecta the next day. I took all three Thrive products exactly as instructed on day two. Again, I felt absolutely no different the entire day. Having watched Shanāannās videos extensively, I decided to keep this process up over the next 5 days. She said over and over again that her āaha momentā happened on day 15. I continued to take the capsules, slap on a Black Label patch (felt like an idiot wearing it) and drink the shake. The result? Nothing. The only benefit that came from this was through the shake. It served as a sort of meal replacement, no different from Slim Fast or any other products. Needless to say, I did not order more Thrive (never intended to). I was actually a little disappointed that literally nothing happened. I expected to at least feel like I had drank a cup of coffee…something. Nope.
I read a lot about PEA during my research and it seemed to be the ingredient that was the most potent. Based on your research, it sounds like something in the the Black Label patches are meant to potentiate the PEA. I suppose it is possible that it needs to build up in your system however, Iād imagine it has a fairly short half life. It is also possible that certain people need much higher amounts to feel any real effects. I certainly was not stimulated by the Thrive products. I realize there are plenty of MLM peddlers that would say I didnāt take it long enough, blah, blah. Still, after taking the extremely expensive supplements for a week, I canāt imagine how it would be possible to feel no difference if this product was ever going to be effective. In my opinion, thatās because it wasnāt.
Good on you, conducting an experiment on yourself clean queen. Chris was wearing 3 patches, drinking the shakes, etc. And not to besmirch Nickole A. but it takes more than a patch on your arm to lose weight. Years ago I tried Slim Fast. I used it as a meal substitute. On the third day I was dizzy, jittery, sick. Perhaps it wasn’t meant to be tried as a meal substitute, but they did market it as such. It’s the equivalent of “No Doze” in liquid form. Not only was I dizzy, I was starving. I think Thrive, as well as over the counter meds, marketed as enhancing this or causing that are on a par with snake oil and right up there with the magic of believing. There is an effect, but it’s negative. At least with an over the counter med you can look up the ingredients. But how many people do.
Thanks for taking one for the team, Clean Queen! I found it fascinating too.
I was really doubting whether there could possibly be enough of these substances in the products to mimic the effects I was reading about. One of the potentiating ingredients in the Black Label patch is selegiline, but I can’t remember the other one. Hordenine, an MAO mentioned in the article, is not one of the ingredients. It did occur to me that Chris could have purchased something online in chasing some of the more euphoric effects these nootropics (can we call them drugs yet?) seem to produce when “stacked” together. Here’s an interesting article I found:
https://medium.com/@peterfaretra/nootropics-the-effects-of-the-mind-altering-h-pea-combination-942da3e077a2
I do know that there are a lot of creative-types in start-up technology companies that try to slay the dragon using various nootropics and prescription drugs such and Vyvanse and Modafinil. The effects can vary in effect from subtle elevation of mood and concentration, to very noticeable, extreme effects if we are to believe the testimonials.
If CW knew someone socially (Nick Thayer perhaps?) I doubt they would feel it necessary to disclose their use of “smart drugs” to investigators. Not to mention he doesn’t look like the stereotypical go-getter entrepreneur I have in my head. Just a thought I had in the first time I saw the “sermon on the porch” which led me down this path for a time.
Something seemed off about his lack of an emotional display, as if he just couldn’t fake it. All in all, however, I came to the conclusion that the Thrive products alone wouldn’t be responsible for any drastic change in behavior.
Good work JC. There is no date on that particular sheet of her notebook pad so I suppose she could have been researching Nootropics at any time – it is her handwriting, but what about the possibility that Chris was using them? Certainly the high energy jolt would contribute to his inability to sleep, irritability toward the kids his last week in NC, and probably his high libido. . Last line – “memory, creativity or motivation in healthy individuals.” He was the healthy individual – she was not. At the bottom of the entry it looks like “Lowes guy”, which makes no sense, then “Vision Board”. Her handwriting is difficult to decipher.
Oh, yeah, libido. I forgot to mention the PEA being known as the “love drug” and chocolate contains PEA. No wonder I love chocolate!
I am very curious to know what CW was taking besides Thrive. I just found one article from the National Institute of Health concerning a male patient, 30 years old, who did have drug addiction issue. But he was taking over the counter performance enhancers and quit his job because of the strong urge he felt to kill his boss. Here is the link:https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4894515/. Maybe someone who has more understanding of these OTC drugs could explain this article better? NIH seems to me to be a credible source but it is only one case. However, I can’t help wondering about all the stamina that CW had, and also, his interest in weights and body building would suggest that he may have been taking OTC enhancers. I guess SW and CW were looking for the fountain of youth. They both seemed very preoccupied with their physical appearance. SW had to have felt some frustration of her husband’s affair and her own desirability. How could she possibly compete with someone who was fit, athletic appearing, and ready for sex. One thing odd about NK was how she researched the condom expiration date that CW brought to her house. That is so weird that I can hardly even believe I read that. Maybe I just dreamed that one.
No dream, it was in the discovery. It was a method she was trying to determine when CW had last slept with his wife and if he had lied to her which he had. I’m surprised NK didn’t contact SW directly to find out the divorce date.
Well it does show suspicion of his honesty with her. The whole question of enhancements that they were using is interesting. Were they all using OTC enhancements? Anadarko does hair drug testing as part of the employment process. And because the industry is considered dangerous, they may also have random drug testing as well. So I am pretty sure that CW was not using illegal drugs or anything like that.
I think Maura, NK was a pretty good little investigator. She must have known something was off as soon as she spent the time trying to find him an apartment and he didn’t seem anxious to move, then said he didn’t have the money, then said he didn’t want to talk about it any more. She did nothing wrong more than believing he was going to do what he said he was going to do – get a divorce. At the very least move out pending a divorce. I think she was at the end of this affair anyway. I’ve thought for some time now he knew she was going to give up on him and he may have killed his family as a way of punishing them for losing what he wanted most. The long call to her on the 12th and the facetime where she said he just kind of stared at her was possibly the long (111 minute) goodbye. Your mind knows it’s over but your heart still believes it’s not.
“Iām surprised NK didnāt contact SW directly to find out the divorce date.”
You know, that would have been okay! Let’s look at the facts: CW says he’s in the final stages of divorce, and he’s going to have *some* child custody, so NK is going to be in the company of his children going forward (presumably). NK could have legitimately asked for a sit-down with CW and SW so they could all talk about the children’s welfare going forward, exchange phone numbers as emergency contacts, and so on.
If everything had been on the up-and-up, this would have been the healthy thing to do.
Ralph, I guess you haven’t gone through a divorce with kids involved.
It’s not quite that simple. Or that easy.
No lovey dovey when this happening. It takes alot of time, court, child welfare, lawyers, appts, not agreeing to agree.
It can even take years to work out.
It’s not pleasant, especially when emotions, feelings involved. It can get ugly.
This why murders happens to families.
Some wifi enabled devices only work if you are all connected to the same network. So your phone could as a baby Monitor display in the house but Not via the full internet. This is a privacy issue where the manufacturer gives you extra convenience but creates less risk that strangers can hack you.