I have a very controversial, strange, eccentric theory why Chris Watts may have felt he couldn’t just walk out the door. It has to do with the fact that Shan’ann was fifteen weeks pregnant. I think that was sort of a factor for why he felt locked-in, but more important, why Shan’ann would have felt even more locked-in and ready to do battle [for the house, custody and alimony].
I also think if Shan’ann was a less controlling personality, including less controlling of the family finances and bank accounts, Chris Watts may have felt he had the chutzpah to just chuck the marriage and walk out.
I think it’s naive, and more than a little disingenuous, for Frank Rzucek to sort of imply that Watts was completely free to leave, and if he did, Shan’ann [and everyone else] would be fine with it. Sandi Rzucek also told Dr. Phil that Shan’ann would have coped, and been just fine without Watts’ help and support? Really? Well Shan’ann didn’t think so.
Chris Watts clearly didn’t think walking out and not looking back was an option. And neither did Cassie or Nickole.
As unpleasant and difficult as it is for many people to do, we also have to imagine what it is like for an introverted/non-confrontational personality type to deal with a dominating/intimidating/wear-the-pants type of controlling person. To many ordinary people, confrontation – even confrontation of a domineering, extroverted personality [say, someone like Trump, or even Oprah] – is no big deal. But to an introvert confrontation itself is so terrifying it’s taboo.
We know how Shan’ann reacted to “small” things like the $68 charge on her credit card. She Googled the menu, checked prices, checked when the Rockies game ended and called Chris Watts, questioned him and told him to keep the receipt.
Her response to nutgate was to make a scene of Facebook, and block Chris Watts’ parents out of her children’s and husband’s lives, and this was sketched as for everyone’s own good and in their best interests.
Whether you agree with Shan’ann’s approach or not, the point is, if she reacted in this way to a $68 bill and nuts in icecream, imagine how Watts felt or imagined Shan’ann might respond to something really fucking serious, like a full-blown betrayal [during her pregnancy] like an affair and the prospect of them losing/selling the house.
That was really the bottom line. Watts thought of the house as his. Since we have no idea how much Shan’ann was actually earning [or spending] it’s difficult to tell whether Watts was holding the entire fort financially, or most of it, or how much of it. But for various reasons he didn’t want to share the house with his wife or children.
In the real world, if he [or anyone else] had said to his family, do you mind going away and letting me keep the house? No one would! So this idea punted on Dr. Phil by Shan’ann’s father, that Watts could simply walk out of his house [obviously leaving his house to his family] is ludicrous, and explains why Frank can’t begin to understand “why”. Chris Watts didn’t have a good reason reason for committing his diabolical crimes against his beautiful family, but that’s different to saying he had NO reason.
You make several good points, that I had to read over again, because
I could feel my emotions kicking in. Although it is difficult, uncomfortable,
forgetting the dynamics in the relationship, what’s been put out there,
one could overlook this.
I think both Shan’ann and Chris must have felt trapped in so many ways.
Huh? We are not talking about Chris Watts playing cards in the game of life and tossing out the Queen of Hearts. His company provided employee assistance and he could have seen a doctor to deal with his coping skills and get other counseling. There is no justification for this murder or any other ever. It’s better he had everyone screaming at him than do what he did. I had a close relative walk out on two girls age 2 and 4 while his wife was pregnant with girl 3. 25 years later everyone is ok. Yes there was heartache but life went on and dad has great relationships now with his daughters.
You have to be able to acknowledge that you have a problem before you can seek help for it. Chris Watts shows a shocking lack of introspection or self-awareness. He probably was unable to define to himself what the main issues were, nor how to get around them or solve them in a healthy manner. This is why he felt so trapped. You can’t escape your cage if you don’t realize you hold the key.
There is no justification for this murder or any other ever. >>>No there isn’t, but where is anyone saying ‘Chris Watts was justified…’
The last line of this post pertinently says:
Chris Watts didn’t have a good reason reason for committing his diabolical crimes against his beautiful family, but that’s different to saying he had NO reason.
Criminal psychology is about trying to understand why criminals do what they do, and how they reason. Figuring that out is what true crime is all about, but that shouldn’t be conflated with “justifying”. One would expect this to be obvious by now, and not even necessary to point out.
2:18 in the clip below:
https://youtu.be/yhzNhLgPX9o?t=133
AD is reading your blog lol. He was doing his live after his “accomplice” video and said “you don’t have to be a rocket science(snickers) or whatever blog called rocket science to figure out that Jim has something to do with this case”. Guess he thinks he’s smarter than everyone now with his shadow stuff. Funny, he believes nothing else from that interview but that the girls were alive, cause that one fits his theory, but he discounts everything else. I asked him how he came to his conclusion that Bella’s nose was broke and she had a skull fracture from being pushed in with his foot, he blocked me without answering lol
He’s an asshat!
You,re right Nick and it was a valid point to raise. If Watts had walked as has been suggested, he would have known ( or maybe his gf informed him) that in addition to high and lengthy child support he was going to pay a court determined alimony on Shannan. For the rest of her life or until she remarried. Colorado law states that ” permanent alimony is given to spouses with poor employment prospects due to ill health or advanced age for the entirety of their lifetime.” He was going to be very, very poor, and I think that factored heavily. No justification for murder obviously, but in his case he must have known that divorce would have in no way lessened his financial problems.
Problem with that explanation is that, in CO, there is no “permanent alimony” as there is with a few states, and Shan’Ann made much of being a “businesswoman”. She supposedly made enough money that LeVel had kicked in at least ONE $800/mo. car bonus. So her financials would finally see the light of day – and if they were as abysmal as we suspect, yeah, she’d get some alimony, but she might also get an injunction against ever participating in a MLM again as a condition of getting it, which would KILL her. (heh – that just kinda slipped out) But anyhow, Shan’Ann had been braggybragging about how good she felt using Thrive, how she no longer needed medication, so that could definitely have been used to counter any claim she was “too sick to work wah wah”.
I looked up and covered the CO alimony formula a while ago here: https://crimerocket.com/tag/alimony/
Hi Ralph, no CO like CA doesn’t have perm alimony for the non disabled or very aged, but they both do for the chronically ill or aged. Now I agree that she talked about making major bank, but did she? And while I have no clue about Lupus ( despite 2 deaths from it of people I worked with) it could be one of those things that has remissions and failures like M.S. Etc. I think she would have been an extremley compelling and sympathetic candidate in court for perm alimony on the special conditions. As Nicks books point out it didn’t seem she had been selling/posting at all for 6 was prior, that could be coincidental or it could mean that she was prepared to show how her health was failing her again in preparation for a divorce case. Then too she was pregnant again, maybe that makes lupus worse, and didn’t she claim other stuff too, fibro etc, and wait there,s more 😗 Two sick children suffering from….well stuff, oh I think she,d have bulldozed him and if he has a brain in his head ( debatable) he would have known that. I always think follow the money, money makes people do nutty things and cruel things as well, I can also see Shannan being the one to cheerfully impart Watts financial future to him should he begin to look like he was slipping the leash.
Where is the evidence of him getting that information? We know trivial things like him searching the lyrics for a Metallica song. Why don’t we see information like him searching for alimony laws in CO? Or searching for things like “How much child support should I pay?”. If NK had been feeding him with that fear, we would have seen co-related searches he would have been doing as well.
Don’t be naive. A huge amount of Watts’ digital traces have been cleaned up and removed, ditto Kessinger’s. Absence of evidence isn’t evidence of absence.
Thank you! The police overall suck at this sort of thing. As you,ll one day show on Zahau as well as this case, they don’t follow the money. When I went after the old Natalie Wood case, I found out that 18 mos before she died she sunk all her capital into Aaron Spelling,s co. Not too long after her unfortunate “drowning” he had to buy out her grieving widower at 350 million dollars. LAPD never looked at the money on that one, but I felt that 350 mil ( which used to be a lot of money 😂) was a fair reason for murder. And why did Theresa May allot another 8 million pounds ( in the middle of the Brexit mess) to a new search for a long dead child poor Madeline? So no I don’t think they know much or care much about Watts searches, case closed nothing to see here folks, but there is so I can’t wait for your next book.
Hi Firdosh, well I have no idea how far they went back on his phone or for that matter how successful they were on her phone/computer etc. But in every TC case I’ve ever read or worked on it seems that one or both parties victim or perp knew about the money situation down to the penny, insurance, support etc. I have also found that police are horrible financial forensic investigators overall. Regarding alimony, I haven’t yet met anyone in CA who doesn’t know how it works, that horrible 40% of gross income, I think ( and it’s only a thought) but that either Watts or Nicole did know he was heading towards a glam life in a cardboard box under an overpass and planned an alternative scenario accordingly But again just a thought, there is zero in discovery to explain what anyone knew or did financially, so just wondering aloud, it can take years to get money answers on these cases-mores the pity, one pay stub from Le-vel,s “every Tuesday payday would help as would a true explanation of the homeowners money, as would an explanation of how the Primrose school being paid would and, and and….🙂
Nick have you seen this? I don’t know if you’d be interested, it’s just a picture shanann drew as a child in 1994 that was published by the Aberdeen newspaper.
Link didn’t post, I’m so sorry. This is it – https://newspaperarchive.com/aberdeen-moore-county-citizen-news-record-may-22-1994-p-2/
Quite frightening. Cosmically.
Flowers. Sunrise.
next to is a “dear abby” column – about old coffins….
😱 Spooky cosmos 😷😷
I don’t think to many employees would really go to there boss, and say…hey man..my life is pathetic right now, can you help me.
Lol
My controlling wife is preggy with baby 3, i’m trying to give it away, but it’s not working….I’m screwing one of your employees…I’ll be living on the street soon, and oh by the way I’m thinking of killing my wife.
LOL
I wonder what my boss will say.
Agree…some very good points. Perhaps no one has right to end his family’s lives. Still many reasons led to his madness at that moment of his life. If it’s true that he asked NK to help him look for a 2 BR apartment then he probably wanted to get a divorce & have share custody of the kids so he won’t have to deal with Shannan in terms of child support. However with a baby on the way & 2 preschoolers, it doesn’t seem a durable option for him. NK who seems have the “ability” to control him also constantly pressured him in many ways…another dilemma of his life. Unfortunately he chose the most coward heartless way to get on with his new love/life. Very sad!
Also, when CW was looking for a new car (since he’d need a car of his own as his work truck was to be used only for Andarko business), he settled on an Audi SUV – not a 2-seater sportscar or anything a “single guy” might choose. An SUV is a family man’s vehicle.
Nick, this was a great post.
I didn’t realize her dad had said those words. Right, get rid of Chris, move in the big family, kids, and the Rzucek’s.
Oooops Chris want to sell his house. Hehe
Your right, what man is going walk from his own house, it’s not in her name.
Come on, Frank/Sandi knew things were not going well in this marriage. They knew they were seperating. The nut incident, her going on on on, not allowing his parents visiting, him hating her a year before….not wanting new baby.
Shanann and her little….big piglets with her in the pictures are disgusting. Boosting her to Move them in, in fact telling her how the house will sleep all and moving her and her family in (Cassie) and Nicole egging her on.
May Cassie and family in a trailer park.
Very uneducated people here. Wonder if Chris was aware, he was about to get back doored….in his house and wondering …why the fuck are a whole family moving in my house?
As for confonting Shannan…..eeek.
A giant nightmare. She would have lost it. She was monitoring him big time. Her knew her personality and how she would react to their Talk. That’s why no Talk. No reason for that.
Poof.
heh heh heh You drunk posting, Shannon? LOL! Me likey!
Lol, too funny Ralph.
No, I don’t drink or do drugs.
Straight as an arrow.
As usual, my posts are either funny or provoking.
For an introvert, it would be a true nightmare to have another family move in with you! Not to mention, it’s just strange. Even more strange that her parents lived with them for over a year. It’s screwed up that Shan’ann would accept that, and even more screwed up that her parents would actually do it.
I find it way less weird that her parents lived with them than that some family of randos was wanting to move in. Lots of people live with their parents for a time, or have their parents come stay with them, for a variety of reasons. It’s a little odd how long they stayed, but I can see the benefits insofar as financial assistance, child care help, and the grandparents simply wanting to be around the grandchildren. Shan’ann might have welcomed the help, especially with her purported health problems. (To whatever extent they existed. )
The Rzucek’s were at least close relatives who were supportive of their daughter’s marriage and had the best interest of family in mind, as well as being built-in babysitters. Shan’ann’s friend and her family, on the other hand, didn’t seem supportive or respectful of the marriage and thought it was appropriate to move her entire family in when her friend’s marriage was on the rocks and a baby was on the way? Not to mention how upending it would be for young children to be subjected to drastic changes in their home life, while seeing their father pushed and crowded out of their house and lives by the “rando” family. I just can’t think of any scenario where that bizarre arrangement was going to benefit anyone.
It appeared that Chris was better friends with Cassie’s husband Josh than shan’ann was with Cassie. Josh and Chris looked pretty joined together in photos. That was talked about somewhere that they were just going to be staying with them for a couple months till they had a house. I don’t think Shan’ann or Chris would have thought anything of it being they stayed with friends for a year while their house was being built. I’m sure there is a sharing of food bills and other expenses, being Cassie is a nurse they likely would have a decent income
Mitz, I’m sure it would be a fun slumber party for the 4 girls for a few nights, but it would grow tiresome for such little ones to get along and constantly share everything after awhile. Cassie was talking about where all of them would sleep after Chris was no longer there. (Not cool,IMO) When the 2 of them stayed with friends for a year while building the house, they weren’t placing themselves in the middle of another couple’s failing marriage – I’m not sure if Bella was born yet, was she?
When a marriage is strained and close to breaking up anyway, it would be additional breaking point stress at a critical time when they least needed it. Two months is a long time to host a family of 4. It was Shan’ann’s last chance to enjoy her little family before adding another human being into her responsibilities. Another couple moving in might work because they could stay out of each other’s way somewhat, but it would be exhausting to have 4 young kids under foot, especially when pregnant. Somebody would be having a meltdown over not getting to watch their favorite show, etc. daily, maybe hourly, Lol. I agree, the financial help would have been welcome, but they were also talking about finishing the basement. Geez, really? A big construction project going on in the house, 4 young kids, a husband withdrawing from the relationship, and feeling lousy and irritable during a pregnancy? oh boy, no thanks. I try not to consider what I would do given the same circumstances because what’s important is what the Watt’s would do, but I think the reality would’ve looked a lot different than what they were fantasizing.
Oh, and Ralph? I don’t like bumping into guests in my own kitchen (regardless of size too), but apparently you’re the same way! I would just be really crabby after about 2 weeks of it and go stay in a motel somewhere…but that’s just me. The financial help would never be enough for me to let the insanity into my home.
I think the remarks of where they’d be after Chris left and fixing the basement was a joking thing. At the time this arrangement was decided on no one knew they were in trouble in their marriage, I believe in joshs texts with Chris he’s asking about that arrangement and sounds like Josh was leaning towards a different arrangement. That house is over 4000 square feet, not sure how much door blocking they’d create lol. In any event it was for a couple months and they’d be working as that was the reason they were moving.
It’s not just Chris’s house either. Colorado is a marital property state where any assets acquired during the marriage are split. They acquired that house during the marriage, doesn’t matter whose name is on the deed. Vehicles are normally registered to just one owner but it’s still an asset and subject to marital property.
Good to hear they weren’t completely serious about the basement – can you imagine starting construction when they’re looking at foreclosure? Talk about magical thinking. I hope the husband, Josh, may have had some of the same thoughts as me about what that 2 months could realistically look like with the 4 kids. Everyone has those good friends that would say yes if you were in a spot and needed to have a place, but I would think someone would be the voice of reason. It’s really a lot to ask even with family or good friends Maybe as a last resort…maybe I do know a family of 4 that is doing exactly that right now but the friend they live with is retired, single and has a 2nd house she can escape to when she wants. Wealth has its upside, definitely. They’ve been looking for a house to buy for months, so 2 months to find the right, affordable house is very optimistic in the current CO housing market.
And yes, the CO divorce would require one of them to either buy out the other’s half of the home asset, or they have to sell. That house wasn’t going to be something she’d be able to keep living in for long.
It was that comment about banishing CW to the basement with the infant that really got me. So the ideal scenario is apparently to let CW be up all night with the baby, and then he gets to get up at 4 AM and go work hard for 12 hours, earning the *only* money, just to come home, do all the housework, and then disappear obediently into the basement for another night of no sleep with a fretful newborn.
While his spoiled lazy prima donna wife plays queen to a court of her giant size friends, all affirming that she should take advantage of and exploit CW to the maximum degree. Yeah, who wouldn’t want *that*?
“I don’t like bumping into guests in my own kitchen (regardless of size too)”
Most kitchen layouts, whether it’s galley or island, two normal size (healthy slender) people can pass each other without touching. But you put a whale into that space and all of a sudden, it’s a giant obstacle. You’d end up waiting until that person got outta there – and they’d always take way too long, since oversize people tend to move more slowly – and before long, you’re going bald from tearing your hair out. And it’s your own house!
I dunno, I was thinking how helpful a family of four size 40,s could be. Like last night I KNEW we had rocky road ice cream in the freezer, I fought the temptation devil and lost! Today I had to suffer an extra hour at the gym thanks to my sorry 10pm binge, a group like that would be super helpful in removing ( literally) temptation, it would be like living at Chipolte, you,d get so slim so fast.
Oh, you’re right – it’s completely bizarre! Plus, those randos were *enormous*! I’m not fat-shaming here; I’m being realistic. With one of them in a doorway, no one else would be able to pass. Blocking the stairway. Ever been in a grocery store where some inconsiderate Large Marge parks her shopping cart on the right side of the aisle and then stands next to it looking at the left side of the aisle and no one can get through? Like that.
And in a family where both parents were working on being fit and slender – *oof*. They would take up so much sheer *space* that it would be overwhelming.
Ralph, just came back to say that *enormous randos* is one of the funniest, most creative and stupid insults I’ve ever heard. You’re lucky Laura is good-natured – you took her innocuous comment and bastardized it.
Hmm…difficult to tell the difference between genuine levity and the ol’ backhanded compliment here in textspace, so all I’ll say is that I’ve *seen* the pictures of SW with her friends, and she looks skeletal compared to them. And SW wasn’t thin by any means – not even *close*. SW apparently became friends with Cassie via Facebook or something – she’d only been in her presence for a few hours out of the time they’d known each other, and on that basis decided Cassie and her entire family should move in. That’s either desperate, or insane, or just completely lacking in common sense and critical thinking. You can decide for yourself.
Desperate, insane, and completely lacking in common sense – I’d go with all 3!
…. And critical thinking….
i concur. I’m seriously stealing your *enormous randos* and adding it to my vocabulary of witty insults. So, genuine levity for sure.
“I’m not fat-shaming here…”
What is fat-shaming if not categorizing overweight people as “whales,” “cows,” “enormous randos,” “large marges,” etc. while characterizing them as doorway blockage and space suckers who move at the pace of a tired sloth? I’m not offended (nor am I a large marge) just pointing out that’s pretty textbook fat-shaming. Either own it or drop the levity that represents it if you don’t want to own it. Jus’ sayin’ 😉
ps…I don’t mean to pick on you! I think you have a lot of great insights! That just struck me ironically enough to respond. I often agree with your insights as well as appreciating your perspectives. Didn’t want that to get lost in there. AKA no disrespect intended. 🙂
No hard feelings, certainly! Perhaps I’m more sensitive than average to size issues – my whole family has always been slender (all sides), in-laws as well. It could be a kind of provincial attitude – I’m not accustomed to being around people who “look different” in that way, so I *notice* more and find it all the more distracting, compared to someone who has loved ones who are large and so is used to it – does that make any sense? It’s a form of xenophobia, I’m sure.
[Cheryl is banned on this forum, but I thought I’d let through this comment, just to show a) she’s still lurking around and b) her mindset]
Ralph Oscar—Let’s see, “I’ve always been around slim people.” Hmmm—how is that different from “I’ve always been around White people.” Therefore, fat people in your constricted, nasty, small-minded universe are ”Randos”— which is really another disparaging, dehumanizing name, such as nigger, now isn’t it. And all of you here who think this is funny, who pride yourselves on your objectivity, intellect, and analysis, shame on you.
Randos, as in random people, is disparaging and dehumanizing? It equates to one of the most vile words in human vocabulary referring (historically with deadly intent) to an entire race of human beings on our planet?
There are times when a person’s physical size becomes an issue. When a morbidly obese person wants to fly coach in an airplane, for example. On rides at carnivals and amusement parks. Some even have weight limits! When I can’t get past them in a grocery store aisle where normal weight people can pass each other easily. When they’re blocking the walkway at Disneyland (they always move very slowly) and I’m in a hurry to get to a ride. And, yes, wherever space is limited, such as in a kitchen. You don’t have to agree; perhaps I’m just overly sensitive to space issues. So be it – I’m an introvert; CW was an introvert; I imagine that having strangers in his living space *and* having them take up so much of it would have been far more of an issue for him than for SW.
I’m an introvert as well and cannot imagine these house sharing experiences with such constant reoccurrences. Adding very young children into the mix just escalates….everything. 2 mothers, 2 fathers, 4 children, 2 “thrivers” whose goal it is to video record their daily lives, 4-7 cell phones, 4 computers, 1 pregnant mom, 8 mouths to feed, and 8 people to clean up after with only 2 of the 8 obsessively compulsive about orderliness. And that just scratches the surface of this poorly thought out plan. But, hey, if it helps with expenses…
The size of the people would be the least of my worries, my sanity would be my primary concern. I wonder how Chris and Shan’ann really thought it was going to work out when they decided to offer their home for this arrangement?
Good comment. When you think of All that.
Anyone would go crazy. It’s great when you want to help….without hidden motives.
Actually, SRC, if you were trying to drive your spouse into the arms of his lover, I can’t think of a faster, more efficient way of doing it. NK’s place would have become his sanctuary.
Also, as we’ve seen from the their past, as soon as this new baby (the first boy, no less) was born, the maternal grandparents would probably be moving back in for an extended stay to a) enjoy their new grandson & b) help Shan’Ann with the day-to-day of being a Mother to 3 small children (which I absolutely do not understand, because no matter what anyone wants to say, Bella & CeCe were normal, healthy little girls, who just happened to have a Mother that wanted them, so badly, to appear sickly and ailing & judging by the countless posted videos, seem to be pretty well-behaved). So, can you imagine having the family of 4 staying in your home and then as soon as they leave (that’s IF they found their own home by the time Nico is born) you’ve got your in-laws descending on your home? That would be a hell like none other, for me.
That was some great insight, yikes I never thought of all those people living there, but after your post I could see it, and you wouldn’t be alone in thinking that would be hell on earth. I also agree with you about the girls, they seemed like average toddlers, she conversely seemed to be trying to sell her audience on them being terribly ill and horribly behaved, but then again if they had been “normal toddlers” there would have been no way to inject a mil or so comments in about how thrive helped one cope. I,ll give her this much, we live in a time when anything that annoys us, can cause an over the top reaction, so maybe created problems are the new normal, I dunno, that way you can compare having to do laundry with being a Holocaust survivor and get people to feel sorry for you. Here I,ll give it a go…on Wednesday ( cue theme from Jaws) I have to go to the DMV!
“Bella & CeCe were normal, healthy little girls, who just happened to have a Mother that wanted them, so badly, to appear sickly and ailing & judging by the countless posted videos, seem to be pretty well-behaved).”
You’re *right*! Shan’Ann curated everything in service to her “business” – presenting that Thrive garbage as the panacea to everything that might be wrong in a potential customer’s life. Chris getting all trimmed down and buff certainly fit Shan’Ann’s motivations and manipulations. But the girls – certainly.
We’ve discussed here (before your time, I think) about how odd it was to be sending such *little* children off to all-day preschool (8 AM – 4 PM) and then putting them to bed between 6 PM and 6:30 PM. On the days they were home, they were taking several-hour-long naps. It really looks like Shan’Ann simply wanted to minimize the time she had to be around them! Many of us believe it’s likely that she was drugging them to get them to sleep – that’s become alarmingly commonplace nowadays, as I learned from doing a quick search on the topic. And on the Maddie McCann documentary, there is a doctor who says that every doctor she knows has sedated their children using CalPol or whatever it is, just so they (the parent(s)) can get a decent night’s rest. Note that the McCanns were both doctors.
Kathleen: NO! Not the DMV!!
“the girls, they seemed like average toddlers, she conversely seemed to be trying to sell her audience on them being terribly ill and horribly behaved, but then again if they had been “normal toddlers” there would have been no way to inject a mil or so comments in about how thrive helped one cope.”
Excellent observation. The other angle is *why* was CeCe having so many tantrums? When a small pre-verbal child is having so many meltdowns, you’re looking at an unhappy child. Why? Was it because Mommy couldn’t ever be available to pay attention to you because she was always talking to a camera? Whatever it was, there were problems there, and it appeared that Shan’Ann’s solution was to get rid of the children – to too-expensive preschool where others would have to deal with them; to too-early bedtimes; to too-long naps. So she would have more time to talk to that camera.
Yes really the DMV! I,m glad that you understand Ralph what a tragic figure this makes me. And I think poor old Cece was just trying to burn off some excess energy from excess sleep and stultifying boredom, I mean why no skiing? 3 is when most people start lessons, they seemed to have this lame all inside life in one of the coolest places to live outdoors wise. I dunno she looks so good to me for half of this crime, she didn’t seem to like the girls at all. Ski school being but one glaring example as that requires being outside and involved with your children, like biking etc, that’s Colorado but…I mean I can’t help but wonder if she came up with their illnesses to make sure they couldn’t have a regular life?
Kathleen, you make an excellent point about ski school. Heck, Shan’Ann was trying to talk Chris into an adults-only weekend at Aspen, so clearly it was close enough. They *could* have been doing ski stuff with the kids – they were at the perfect age. But since both parents came from NC, mountain sports may not have really been on their radar – I can give them a bit of a pass there. I wanted my kids to learn to ski (I learned when we lived in Europe), even though the closest slopes are 3 hours away – planned an outing over Christmas one year, but Son came down sick as a dog and we had to cancel. We ended up not doing the ski stuff, but Son ended up learning how to surf, so whatevs.
It did appear that Shan’Ann was the only one who got regular outings – but she made sure they were all by/for herself, manicures with her friends, stuff like that.
Ralph, clearly your family suffered a series of Unfortunate Events! 😀 But yeah six years in CO and you don’t take up skiing? Its as weird as a magazine hat in SF or NYC, like what are you doing there? CO attracts a certain sort ( madly athletic humans) Aspen in August? Wot? I mean this girl could spend money, beach vaycays when not paying H.O.A.,s etc, but if this group was living inside like it was sweet home Alabama in July then they weren’t in CO to thrive, next stop Boston to sell online degrees?
To add to that, even if Chris did know they were planning on moving in, what could he actually do about it? I very highly doubt she asked, if it was mentioned to him at all it was probably presented as “So cassie and her family are going to be staying with us for a short time. ” That’s it. No discussion about it. Imagine trying to keep your head above water and every time you get a breath of much needed air, someone cuts it short by slamming your head back underwater again. Chris barely survived the last time she invited her family to move in, and now a third kid on the way, even less income because Shanann no longer had a job that payed her anything, and you’ve got not just two people but an entire family moving in? Forget it. He was barely keeping up the ruse as it is (even though he really wasn’t) but now they’re about to be foreclosed on with no money to move or put down on a place (shanann being able to rent? No. Even if she had money she had abysmal credit and you need to prove you make 3x the rent, it isn’t happening) the HOA is suing them for years of back pay, etc.. I couldn’t think of a worse time for it.
It also goes to show you how delusional shanann is. They were about to lose the home and can’t pay any bills, yet she’s inviting a family of four of five to live with them in a house they won’t have much longer. Cassie claims it’s to save up money and look for a place. Not trying to be mean, but if they couldn’t make it in AZ, Colorado won’t be easier and we all know it would take longer than a month for them to save up. On top of it, it’s implied that they won’t be paying rent because then they couldn’t save up as quickly.
Does it strike anyone else as weird that even though she hasn’t know cassie for that long, Cassie sees no issue not only moving in but telling her host how to arrange her home? If I told my best friend of 20 years that I’m moving in, not paying rent, and oh by the way- you need to put your kids out of their own room to make way for me – it’s safe to say we wouldn’t be friends much longer.
There’s just so much delusion in one case my head is spinning, it’s a cluster fuck for lack of a better word. I see all these YouTubers covering this case and they all say shanann had so many friends and Chris had none, but where are they? Cassie and Nicole are her friends but it’s pretty clear they’re only there to use one another, they’re “MLM friends” and nothing more. I dont see that she had any real friends, am I missing something here?
Totally agree with everything you just said. All of these people had boundaries and priorities that would never be acceptable to me.
Yes, exactly – the boundaries and priorities thing. I couldn’t even. And what if the children didn’t get along? Everyone likes to think that children always get along, but they often don’t. I had a friend from France who was coming to visit for a couple weeks during the summer for a few years, but she had this little daughter who was a complete nightmare (due to the friend being an abysmal parent) and so I eventually ghosted her because my children were adamant that they did not want that child around ever again (she was between them in age). This was when my children were ages 6 and 4, BTW, they were already in agreement about that child.
There’s that woman who moved in for two months to help out after her neck surgery – I didn’t think she was involved with any of Shan’Ann’s MLMs. She was probably a genuine friend.
“It also goes to show you how delusional shanann is. They were about to lose the home and can’t pay any bills, yet she’s inviting a family of four of five to live with them in a house they won’t have much longer. Cassie claims it’s to save up money and look for a place. Not trying to be mean, but if they couldn’t make it in AZ, Colorado won’t be easier and we all know it would take longer than a month for them to save up. On top of it, it’s implied that they won’t be paying rent because then they couldn’t save up as quickly.”
Insightful – truly, just how much “rent” would they be expecting to pay? What kind of jobs would they have, being brand new in town? Thrive? That doesn’t pay anything. And if the goal is to save up money to get their own place, that means they don’t have any money right now – moving would probably eat up whatever little they have. So the more they pay in rent, the longer they have to stay in the Watts house because they aren’t saving as much. And the more the Watts want them out, the less they have to be willing to accept in rent. It’s a devil’s bargain, to be sure. No one in their right mind would even *consider* it.
Why were they wanting to relocate to CO, anyhow? What’s in CO that isn’t in AZ? Was Cassie’s husband Josh planning on getting on with Andarko or something?
Hi Ralph, so it’s occurred to me that if the Watts family had not lived in that house, this story would have had no legs and no public interest. A sad but very true thing is that people are murdered in the ghetto and trailer parks everyday-even white people 😊 But it’s maybe a blip on the local news, in reality this was a seriously poor, uneducated, group of broke grifters, not even strikingly attractive, but nice house so we are curious about them. Don’t know if you were a Dominick Dunne fan but he said “a drop of blood in a drawing room is more interesting than ten gallons in the ghetto. Nother ugly truth, but if it had been say that unemployed, badly overweight bunch from AZ that had done each other in, well these people weren’t the Ramsey,s ( a HORRIBLE family but so rich and such a beautiful victim). I’m asking you because you do seem to have noticed how….tactful word search here…how sort of uhm well you know.
Sorry, Kathleen, I don’t do subtext very well. What I *will* say is that what sets this case apart is that, so far as I can tell, it’s the only such case thus far where so much of the family’s bidness was on display due to Shan’Ann’s obsessive videoing. Which is due to her MLM compulsion. Those two together, and that’s the diagnosis for the modern malaise within American society (can’t speak for our international brethren and sistern). “The Secret” – get something for nothing. Easy money, no work required, anyone can do it – from home! And you can be a superstar, too! Something like LeVel, which requires a certain level of video output, attracts the spotlight seekers like Shan’Ann. Plus, the maddening facet of this case is Chris – no one ever saw it coming. It’s still difficult to wrap our minds around why he decided to take this most desperate step, yet he did. What other murder has left so much evidence right there on the ‘net for everybody to look at via Facebook? We get to look for ourselves and draw our own conclusions, without waiting for the police investigation to unspool. That’s irresistible.
Ralph, I love your posts! Just wanted to say so. And btw I’ve adopted the phrase randos such fun!
I get the feeling that Chris was reading shanann’s texts via the cloud. He said he communicated with NK via his work phone, not his personal phone. The only reason he would do that is if he thought shanann could access his text/call log. It makes sense because NK said he was excited about looking for apts, then suddenly the last week he showed no interestI. If he was reading her texts, that timeline coincides with shanann and her friends ramping up the “take everything he owns” speech. I think that’s when he made the decision to go from leaving to murder.
Perhaps. He might have been aware of different conversations going on.
You got a good point. It can be easily done.
Yes, that’s a possibility.
Insightful analysis, ncam619. That scenario would explain a lot. Can you *imagine* how you would feel to discover that your wife and her army of friends were planning to wring you out and hang you out to dry, instead of negotiating in good faith? Discovering that there was *no chance* of negotiating in good faith?
It would have been devastating, especially to an introvert like CW, to see evidence that she intended to ruin him.
Ralph,
it would be devastating for anyone to read, bad things about themself…. especially from your wife.
It would be sad to see that.
PS…everytime I read my comment and your comment back to me….thinking I’m drunk, I laugh so hard.
If *you* don’t drunk post, Shannon, you’re the only one…
She’s not the only one.
Sorry, that comment between myself and Ralph, is an inside joke.
Seems everyone is getting a little testy lately.
Even though we all make different comments, if opens the thought process.
We just have to all calm down and breathe.
((*-*))….
I remember you once commenting that it would be nice to sit around in a group together sometime just talking about it all rather than having to wade through the misunderstandings that can often occur through text inflection or lack thereof. I thought that was brilliant! Lol (and I’m not testy but can see how that would have read as a testy comment!) I’ll take your advice though and just….breathe. 😊
Ha ha.
Yes that would be one wild discussion.
We’d need security.
Personally I love a good debate.
Chris had no backbone to stand up to anyone. You can bet Nikki would have called all the shots also. The Watts are a strange family. He is the one who wanted the baby.Im sure Frank had rather seen him walk away than what happened. Chris should have been the man of the house took control of finances instead of looking for a low down woman to come in and take care of him just like SW did. Helping him with his diet.Exercise finding him an apartment.He was a mama’s boy who never grew up and liked the domination.
Great post. He couldn’t just walk out the door. He had no acccess to his own money. I have always felt that they pregnancy was the true motive behind the murders, at least for Shanann. Chris says in his confession that Nichol told him she could give him a son. Nichol complained to Chris and her friend that she wouldn’t have any “firsts” with Chris since he was already married and had daughters. She could however give him his first son. It’s not just a coincidence that Chris convinced Shanann to wait until August 13 to announce the gender of the fetus.
That’s a great point. He may have felt he wanted Nichol to give him a son, or she may have wanted that, or possibly both.
During the jailhouse confession, Chris admitted he closed his Facebook account because he didn’t want Nichol’s friends to search him and find out about the pregnancy. The pregnancy was weighing heavily on Chris. He admitted that Nichol was not aware of the pregnancy and if she knew she never confronted him.
He also said in his interview though that Nichol wasn’t sure she wanted children. If she wasn’t sure she even wanted her own that could possibly say to Chris that she definitely wouldn’t want his then
Chris already had a lot of baggage. The pregnancy/baby would have been too much and Nichol would have walked away and that was the last thing Chris wanted at the time. The pregnancy ,the “dagger” he felt she created between Chris and his father and his fear of confrontation are what set him over the edge. He chose to do it that night to stop her from announcing the gender that day (August 13th).
Don’t forget, he offered to give the baby away……who does that.
That shows he did not want another baby.
To take another woman’s children, young and sick….. debatable.
Of course we must remember, Shanann alive still, 3 young kids, living where….? How often would Chris really see the kids and a newborn.
Shanann dead, baby dead, girls alive, no need for an apt, Chris charged with murder….kids where… Grandparents. But killing all, Gone.
No more responsibility, for anyone.
Chris , with his so called stories…….. alone.
If he didn’t want another baby he should have maybe made sure before they started trying for one. You can change your mind about a marriage but changing your mind about a baby when it’s on the way is a bit late
That depends. Did he know, that maybe Shanann was trying for a baby. There are lots of woman who try to get pregnant for many reasons.
Girl having an affair, guy has 1 kid with wife, she wants his kid, he says No. She pokes holes in condem , gets pregnant, his wife is pregnant with #2. She tells him she is pregnant….he walks away. Gives 100.00 a month, never saw the boy again.
We will never really know, about the 3rd pregnancy…who what where why….we only know the how.
Considering that they needed fertility intervention in order to have the first two children, it’s entirely likely that CW did not expect that SW could get pregnant again without more of that same fertility intervention (which he would know about, which they did not have). I’m sure you saw her cringefest “Oops We Did It Again” “reveal” to him – all on video so he had no choice but to play along. CW never had any opportunity for honest reactions with SW.
That video was so uncomfortable. My SO saw me watching that as he was doing something in our office, can’t remember what but here even commented that Chris looked like he was unhappy. My SO knows nothing about this case, so I did find that interesting.
Nobody with “fertility issues” gets pregnant three times in five years.
That’s just another lie she told for sympathy.
“If he didn’t want another baby he should have maybe made sure before they started trying for one. You can change your mind about a marriage but changing your mind about a baby when it’s on the way is a bit late”
Remember, mitzi, they only conceived their daughters by using fertility drugs. CW *knew* SW was not using fertility drugs at this point, and as a woman ages, her fertility declines. So she was even *less* likely to get pregnant at that point than earlier, and earlier, nothing had happened without medical intervention. They were still paying off the medical bills from those earlier fertility treatments, too.
He told investigators how upset he was when Shan’ann told someone she was 70/30 against having another baby after she was pregnant. He didn’t dispute that it was his idea to have another baby. Before she got pregnant she told friends that Chris wanted another baby, even credited Chris for giving her the confidence to have another one on video. He regretted she was pregnant after he started with NK because it had the potential to break up that relationship, it’s why he lied to NK that he wasn’t the father. So yea, a little late to decide you don’t want another one
Agree with ALL of this.
“I have always felt that they pregnancy was the true motive behind the murders, at least for Shanann. Chris says in his confession that Nichol told him she could give him a son. Nichol complained to Chris and her friend that she wouldn’t have any “firsts” with Chris since he was already married and had daughters. She could however give him his first son.”
That’s an excellent insight – that would have been the last “first” NK could ever have with CW, and clearly “being first” was really important to her. So important that CW was able to see that just having SW and the girls still in the picture was going to be an ongoing source of conflict with NK. CW had to choose, and he chose NK. He did what he had to do to free himself to be “unattached”, the only way he could optimize himself for NK. If he could have gotten away with his ruse that “Shan’Ann took off with the kids and chose to disappear”, that would have been absolutely perfect…
I’m really glad you made that point.
Yeah, like nk would ‘give’ him a son… Sounds so like a neanderthal thinking…who the heck controls foetus gender…except when committing female infanticide…
Montrosity in society…
She could’ve, maybe after seven daughters
What the heck is wrong with having (a) female child(ren)? Jeeeez
Damned if he left, Damned if he stayed. Pressure from SW. Pressure from NK. tick tock, tick tock….. Ka boom.
That sums it up pretty well, EJD.
I see that a Sandra Rzucek lived at 1000 Peninsula Drive Belmont, NC 28012-8677 for two months – 5/1/2012-7/15/2012. This means she listed Shan’ann’s house as a place of residency and likely received mail there. As we know Byron Falls purchased the home (or escrow closed, or was receiving mail) at 1000 Peninsula Drive Belmont, NC 8/17/12. Why would Sandra, and Sandra alone, be living with her daughter (and Chris) for two months?
How soon after that did the Rzucek’s file bankruptcy? I’ve heard some people will do this when creditors are closing in and something is in danger of being repossessed. It can buy a little time, I guess, but the debt catches up with you eventually. That’s just a wild, random guess btw, because I really don’t know. It’s such a hassle to change your address – I don’t know why you’d do it just to change it again in 2 months.
It’s extremely odd – there were no babies at that point.
This.post makes a lot of sense to me. The nut incident I think was especially pivotal in splitting Chris from Shan’ann psychologically and increasing his inner anger towards her (linking in his mind, anger from the wedding and split from his parents again). In the last weeks, Shan’ann seems to bounce between introspection and anger towards Chris, realizing perhaps for the first time in their relationship that she was losing control of him. She was undoubtedly scared and unwilling to even contemplate the dismal future she would face financially and loss of her lifestyle. I suspect, in the end, her anger would win out (controlling people do not take well to rebellion) and she would use all her social media resources to produce a scorched earth scenario where Chris would come out a little lower than a barnyard pig. She already had her Thrive friends egging her on – in their conversations they more or less discussed where to ” put him” as if he were a troublesome pet, not the owner of that very house. Even if they did not speak that way in front of him, their attitudes of disdain would make being around them a living nightmare – as an introvert, I cannot imagine living in a house with all these friends (and their children) moving in, creating more noise and chaos and forming a group against Chris in his own home. Although we all agree nothing justified these murders, it was not as easy as one would think for Chris to ‘walk away’. There was an explosion coming, with all these storms brewing that summer and all these pressures coming to bear, something would have to give. If you are not an introvert, it may be hard to understand how this pressure can become so unbearable, but introverts are very sensitive to others attitudes, moods and energy and the natural reaction is to remove yourself from the situation (we really need quiet\ solitude\ alone time to think and breathe). But what if things are tense as it is and your home is soon to be invaded by chaotic unfriendly forces – where are you to go? The urge to escape can be overwhelming. As agent Coder remarked “there is only so much oxygen in the room” and strong personalities can suck that up quite quickly, leaving someone like Chris ironically feeling like he cannot breathe.
That all rings true for me, KerryA. We have already seen how SW was mobilizing her troops around her. CW, as the introvert in this equation, had none to work with. SW clearly saw herself as having the upper hand, between her position as “mom” and the newborn coming and her friends egging her on. She is the one with a community, and she was rallying them to her side, *against* CW. CW knew this. That hate-filled, vindictive tsunami was rearing up to swamp him and drown him, so he cut it down. At that point, it was the only way out that he could see. And then all was quiet.
I agree Ralph. I hate to say it, but if I’m honest, it all makes a strange kind of sense to me. Even in Chris’s interview on the porch, I just get the feeling off him of immense relief like a huge pressure valve was released.
That’s exactly what it was. It’s very visible and apparent and why everyone knew he did it immediately. We’ve figured out a lot about Chris. What I’m struggling with (and kind of getting shit for) is that that still doesn’t explain it. When other people say that it’s like “oh well you shouldn’t be on this blog.” I disagree with that sentiment. If most of us were in that exact situation and did what he did, I imagine it would bother us, even if our wives were the worst. Right? I would hope? Something is “off” with Chris-that’s why the FBI is studying him. I don’t know why that’s taboo here. Sorry this comment is more to the ether than you personally. I don’t know if anyone knows what I’m talking about or if I’m bout to get blocked.
If most of us were in that exact situation and did what he did, I imagine it would bother us>>>See, that’s where your thinking is off. You’re not Chris Watts, and most of us aren’t Chris Watts either. Chris Watts is Chris Watts. Most of us saying we’d never do X or Y isn’t an explanation for why Watts did what he did.
And yes, you are banned from this blog.
You don’t get to come here and undermine and mock the work done here, and make sarcastic remarks. You clearly feel you know better and feel the research here isn’t of much value. You’re completely entitled to feel that way, and you’ve expressed your feelings so we’re clear on where you stand.
Since we know how you feel, and we know you don’t value the work done here, you’re cordially invited to go peddle your theories about why Watts did what he did to a more receptive audience. While you’re there, please do us the honor of telling your new audience how scummy and stupid this site is [while obviously implying how clever and balanced you are] following in the well-worn footsteps of the many like you that have come before you.
Respect has to be earned, and just as I/we have failed to earn yours, the feeling is unfortunately mutual.
That’s a vicious response and no doubt I will be blocked too. Please explain why you condone all the fat remarks made by Ralph Oscar and the too numerous to count personal unrelated comments against the victim made by Shannon (what a pair these two are !) They comment frequently about the victim not pertinent to the case and you let their comments go. I came here a while ago sharing a personal story in relation to the autopsy findings, but it seems this site is a clique where you let a few regular (somewhat nasty) supporters say whatever they want. Anyone pointing out their bad behaviour is banned. I had thought more of you – seriously Nick, you should consider where to go, objective v subjective – forget regular supporters and allow your true sense of fairness come though.
Hi Alyson, , don’t you find that the books are scrupulously fair? I do, and this isn’t a mean boys/ girls blog, Twitter is, but there is dark humor on here, that’s natural, ER room docs and homicide police are the funniest people I,ve ever met, just a form of whistling in the dark, most people do it for a little distance from horror be it murder or politics. Also what I think makes this case compelling isn’t Chris, who is sort of a John List character circa 2019? But the very strong even slightly scary women he tended to obey until like List he lost it. Sorry 2 cents worth.
H Kathleen, to be honest I never thought of it in terms of dark humour, perhaps that was how it was intended, its always tricky to get it across in a written way as opposed to having a conversation I guess. For me, some of the comments on this site though are downright nasty against a murder victim, rather than the subjective view we should have, which I support , in trying to understand this crime. I have read previous series of NVL books, such as Jodi Arias and respected his writings But it seem to me sycophants, making horrible remarks here, are ok. That is not ok with me. Thank you for your response.
True that Alyson! I mean I’m totally hilarious ( in my own mind) but every joke I write about my hated mayor on Twitter gets me death threats so erm….😳 I mean a person does their best Kate McKinnon and ends up sounding like Alix Jones, sonofabitch! Anyway sure there’s sycophancy, it’s his blog and he wants people to play nice in the sandbox, makes sense. The thing is ( no offense Nick) but he,s crazy to have a blog, people hate each other on the net, it seems like no matter what you say someone decides you should die horribly, I mean the weather in Buffalo does suck but jeez I’m sorry I ever mentioned it 😅 But he created one anyway and it’s pretty chill here and super interesting so one of the rare cool blogs, and fortunately he really can write so it’s not like we have to say nice things about say the musical stylings of Celine Dion or the breathless beauty of Danielle Steele,s prose. 😬
Alyson it’s quite simple. This site is meant to promote, support and complement the research done in the books. If all you can see is what’s wrong with the site, or what’s wrong with the commenters, or what’s wrong with me, then clearly it’s not doing what it’s supposed to be doing. As much as you feel hurt by comments you don’t agree with, you have absolutely no idea how rigorous the policing has been of the comments of this blog. I’ve mentioned on numerous occasions permanently turning off the comments to this blog as one way of dealing with it. Sooner or later someone – everyone – makes a fucked up comment. It’s not my job to address every remark to your satisfaction much as you may think it is.
Don’t answer any comments me included, it will distract you from finishing the 7th book Goddamnit, and no good can come from that! I mean of course I suppose if you DID want to answer a comment, say for example, the book will be out on…..well that would probably be okay…..🍾🍾🍾👏
7th book is finished and uploaded. Stuck in publishing limbo, hopefully not for much longer.
Yay!!
Hello there.
Every comment on here, wiether good, bad or ugly, to me is worth reading.
Some people like my comments some don’t
All my comments are related to this case.
I’m the type of person, who tells it like it is. Maybe I’m saying something, that someone else would like to say, but doesn’t.
Trust me I have alot of Compassion in my Heart. I would never wish harm on anyone.
I have actually toned down my comments.
Every blog needs alittle controversy here and there.
Have you ever stopped to think that Shan’ann really did love her husband? That the Thrive meant nothing to her over and above her husband as she tried to save her marriage? This is clear by the lack of sales posts when all of this crap was going on. She dispensed with all that and saw she was losing the man she loved – which she also stated in text messages to her friends. Yeh, she was pissed, unsurprisingly,as her husband was being cold and distant so she lashed out – but she wanted to make it work and she loved him. Too bad he just wanted her dead eh?
Alyson, no I gotta give you that, I for one have not considered that she loved him. Nothing about their relationship indicated love. There was a comment by her to him, something like ” it’s easy to text I love you and I miss you when you don’t mean it.”
She opened a boatload of truth for everyone there. We all do it, it’s easier, and it’s easy on the web too. Love you, love you guys, love it, love all of you, love you heart emoticon heart emoticon. Our relationship is awesome ( insert emoticons).
If they had once loved each other it had long gotten lost under years of debt and lies and bs. People who love each other are straight, they don’t keep secrets about money that will suprise the other person by having the whole fucking house fall on you unexecpectedly. They don’t roll down hidden agenda lane. I,ve done it, everyone on earth has done it, save a few Tibetian Monks somewhere who took a vow of silence.
This case exposes the sad, sorry state of our endless bullshit towards the people we are supposed to bullshit the least our own spouses. And how it all can go so far underwater when your lies, when your shuffling around money and what you really feel and want and mean comes out.
“This is clear by the lack of sales posts when all of this crap was going on.”
uh…did you forget that she was on a 6-week trip across the country and without access to her computer where she made her videos??
How is going far away for SIX WEEKS how someone shows her love for her husband? The trip was apparently supposed to be two weeks; Shan’Ann decided – all by herself – to extend it to six weeks. Is *that* how someone “saves their marriage”?? By disappearing for a month and a half?
The lack of sales posts was due to Shan’Ann being out of town – end of June through early August. If you look at the dates, the trip overlaps the lack of sales posts perfectly.
With her, it was always all about her.
Hiya Ralph! So my ( rotting ) brains immediate reaction to thinking of her great love for Chris was the Tina Turner Classic what’s love got to do with it, but then quelle horreur I started thinking of a song my father used to play over and over ( and over) “games people play” ( yes my parents had a fabulous marriage 😆) at any rate now I’ve had to buy it on Amazon so annoying. But on the bright side, this case has made me realize that no one who lies to their spouse about money, big or small gives a crap about that person and that might be a good set of case studies for a book down the road, what’s money got to do with it, do with it, who needs a heart when your credit can be broken ohhh, well you know.
Kathleen, your so cute.
Right back atcha Ms. S!
Hey K!
“no one who lies to their spouse about money, big or small gives a crap about that person”
I dunno – I don’t think it’s *quite* that simple. When someone is in the grips of an *addiction* – and Shan’Ann most *definitely* was – that becomes the focus. Money stressors can bring out really bad impulses, like getting a new credit card because it’s offering a 0% balance transfer rate, trying *anything* to relieve that strain. They say that “money can’t buy happiness” but it’s always *rich people* saying that, you’ll notice. One study I remember found that it was around $75,000 annual income that most people would feel “happy” with – a more recent study found that sweet spot was between $60,000 and $75,000. See here: http://money.com/money/5157625/ideal-income-study/
Note that Chris wasn’t making that, and despite everyone’s claims about how “successful” Shan’Ann was in her “business”, either she was spending it ALL on frivolous nonsense (that closetful of shoes she never wore – WTF?? Who did she think she was, Imelda Marcos??) OR she wasn’t earning anywhere near as much as she was leading people to believe (particularly her brother Frankie, who thought she was making $500,000/yr). The disconnect between Shan’Ann’s “image” and the objective reality should not surprise any of us, though – she lived a carefully curated image-oriented life in promotional videos, presenting herself in the way she believed was most likely to gain her sales. I’m seeing a parallel between her and “social media influencer” vegan diet promoter Rawvana (aka “Fishvana”) – you can read a takedown of her meteoric rise and catastrophic fall here and see what I mean: https://www.patheos.com/blogs/rolltodisbelieve/2019/04/04/living-behind-a-mask/
An addiction doesn’t leave room for much else, though the need for physical *connection*, social belonging, remains. Shan’Ann definitely needed the context of her family for her self-identity, and at least early on, had seen Chris as someone who would take care of her (whether she was faking numerous symptomless ailments as a test to see whether someone would buy into that role or run away from the chore remains a topic for another day), and clearly saw his presence as necessary – to her online image/persona at least. Shan’Ann was an MLM addict – LeVel’s “Thrive” was her SEVENTH MLM attempt, which means she’d lost money in every one of the other six (or else she would have stuck with those, wouldn’t she?). She was driven to be a “boss babe”, someone who “had it all” and was living so large that everyone would see who she’d become and what she had and be ENVIOUS!! She wanted everyone to want to be more like her, which would then motivate them to buy from her, sign up as distributors like her, and become like her. That in itself is a powerful motivation – look at all the religious nitwits out harassing friends, relatives, coworkers, and complete *strangers* to drop everything that makes them unique individuals in favor of becoming pale shades, clones of the religionists. The MLM mantra, “Fake it ’til you make it”, is particularly pernicious – it suggests that if you simply fake it hard enough, it will cross over into reality. But that’s not how reality works…
Ralph, you,re a helluva sociologist, which happens to be my favorite subject, so I really look forward to your posts. I just read the link great article. At any rate, granted my statement was pretty blanket regarding money….and yet…and yet.
Okay Shannon was a serious and serial liar, a long and practiced sort of liar. I’m sure her first marriage was one long saga of never telling him much and going her own way. And based on her grandiose desires, ( I mean 25 a 400k house wtf?) I believe that she embezzled money from her employer to get it, and got away with it.
Then come the string of diseases, then comes the decade of home embezzlement with lucky hubby number two. Smart people stay well away from these entitled narcissistic types, not so smart or maybe just naive people don’t and some end up dead.
Last week Nick mentioned one of my old TC people. The great and terrible Dr. Jeffrey MacDonald. 2 weeks before el jeffe slaughtered his family ( slowly and with unprecedented violence) he gifted himself an 800 dollar stereo, pretty huge money in their day, particularly when you consider that poor pregnant Collette was hauling herself and 2 little girls and a load of bottles she regularly took to recycling for grocery money by wagon to the PX a mile away in Fort Bragg in crappy weather, just like she had done in Chicago for years.
So you ask yourself, what kind of person would buy a stereo instead of a car for his pregnant wife? What kind of person would buy a pony to show what a good father he was, even though he had the only car so Collette and the girls couldn’t even se the pony unless he took them and then posed for pictures to show what a hero of a guy he was?
Well I guess a narcissistic, money and image loving sort of fellow the kind who would and did take out anyone that messed with his pleasures. And he,s not alone every killer comes down to covering their image and their lies, so how did this case get here? This is the first time I’ve seen a victim go this nuts…except Andrea Yates who to be straight, reminds me of Chris Watts, she on the other hand reminds me of Macdonald, weird ain’t it? Pleeease write back your views are so interesting!
I wonder if it coincides with the traffic accident? Might she have moved in to help her daughter recover from that? I moved in with a friend when I was going between living accommodations – and although I had a P.O. Box, I had to give the address for things like my own internet cable, phone service, etc. It was longer than two months though – more like 6 months. Odd.
Oh yeah, Sylvester. Could be.
That’s a great point and you just reminded me about something. I tried to find out about the accident and I got absolutely nowhere. Do we know how bad it was or what year it happened? I hope that’s not a stupid question, I was just curious if anybody had any details because I couldn’t find any mention of it in the local paper, websites, archives etc.. That’s not to say it didn’t occur of course, I just figured an accident that left someone down and out for a bit would be reported on, but that’s not always the case.
Hi, that accident is another puzzler isn’t it? Where, when, and why was this accident and why wasn’t the surgery then and if it was an auto accident wouldn’t car insurance hers or the other persons pay for the surgery? Why were the bills to her and Watts and not the insurer? Also when her mom was on TV ( dr Phil I think) she said my daughter had lupus so I was right there, she didn’t say anything about her neck, no one did was it an elective surgery? Sorry for all the questions, but 50 heads are better than one so thought I,d ask.
It would help if I knew the year the accident supposedly happened. If she were living in Belmont, NC at the time it might appear in the Gastonia Gazette – or it could be in the Charlotte Observer – if it were near Pineville then that would be a Mecklenburg County paper. Sometimes small town newspapers include accident reports, but without a year and a county name I’m shooting blind. If she had a scar on her forehead coming into contact with her windshield I would think there would be some mention of it somewhere. It would fall under car insurance though – hospitalization coverage. I’m afraid my head hit a dead end Kathleen.
Thanks Sylvester…so next annoying question ( sorry 😃) was there ever an accident? I mean car insurance would have paid and who walks around for 8 years with a ruptured disc? Not beating up on doctors but my cousin had this loon of a girlfriend who sort of doc shopped for knee, then, hip replacement, and eventually found one in Vegas and another in Florida to do them, despite her age ( 30) and being in perfect shape, she really loved hydrocodones so I always figured that was the end game. It’s also a fine attention getter.
Kathleen and Shannon, I didn’t figure on the neck surgery having something to do with the car accident. If it did then I wasn’t paying attention somewhere along the line. I thought the neck surgery was because she has a disc problem or something or other her mother mentioned. Something Frankie mentioned he has as well? I know people who “malinger.” They always have something major going on with them that require surgeries, trips to the doctor, but when it seems to be passed on to their children I find that dangerous. It can turn into an attention-getting device. Also one of Shan’ann’s dates with Chris involved taking her to have a colonoscopy. Colonoscopies are usually required (or rather “sold”) to individuals after they turn 60. What was she doing having one in her late 20’s/early 30’s? Another possibility as far as her car wreck is that she exaggerated it. It might have been a fender bender, and thus a reason to play up to Watt’s need to be of help and service.
I meant age 50 – not 60- for colonoscopies.
Slyvester. I have no idea. I couldn’t find anything on accident or neck surgery.
Maybe a dead end.
It just seems Shanann’s lies…stories…whatever…keep getting stranger and stranger by the minute.
I had a colonoscopy, after 50. Very very rare before that.
Who would take a date to a colonoscopy?
Yes, she said she laid down on his lap.
Were they ever living together before marriage.
Geeezs, for a date to pick you up from that, would be so strange.
I would like to know if Chris ever saw her many screwed up posts. A husband seeing this, could only wonder…what the hell.
I just shake my head.
I would love to hear her Doctors, I’m sure many Doctors… reports.
Sylvester and Shannan, you know I don’t have a clue where I even got the accident idea from, the only sites I go to are here and that funny British guy, it’s not in the books so I dunno where I even read it (imagined it?) I have a crush on Dr. Phil ( don’t judge me 😆) but he didn’t say it I don’t think, so now I think I have munchausens by proxy by proxy, or you know something. It looks like an expensive, elective surgery and that’s odd oh for some medical records huh.
Kathleen, I think it was CW who said it to one of the investigators. He said she was in a bad car accident and glass from the windshield left a long vertical scar on her forehead. He said it really showed up when she was overheated or out in the sun, or something like that. I think he also said the accident happened before they met. (Not 100% on that last part, but I think he did.)
Found it. Page 58 discovery docs “He (Chris) said before he met Shanann she had a bad car accident where they believed she blacked out or had a seizure.”
I wonder who the “they” believed are. The police? Her parents? Why would she black out or have a seizure? Any blackouts or seizures prior to the accident that would lead them to believe that was the cause? And when did Chris meet Shan’ann. That should narrow the search down (not much).
I believe she said it was 2010 – the video where she described her journey with Lupus and the story of meeting Chris.
I believe they met in 2010, married 2012.
Geez Sylvester another good catch….so..oh sorry speculation time but I guess if I got a DUI for example and was trying to cover I’d say I had….epilepsy? No, actually I wouldn’t, that seems abnormal, but then I,ve never brought a date to a colonoscopy either, if I ever have one I think I,d tell my hubs I was going for Botox or teeth whitening ( normal stuff lol) Doesn’t Chris come off as sort of a pathetic loser finding this stuff attractive? Sorry that was super judgemental, I just don’t find illness and bodily functions sexy, that’s for waaaay later in a relationship 🙃 Thanks for the awesome Intel!
I had the same thought as Kathleen – if SW was under the influence or being really careless or something and that was why she got into the accident, it might seem less personally damaging to claim a seizure or a blackout, even though I would imagine this could very easily result in her getting her license taken away permanently, so who knows?
Morning Ralph! Sylvester and co did a bang up research on a thing I hadn’t looked at carefully, and since they did my thoughts such as they are, are that 1. I thought people with seizure disorders couldn’t drive, 2. Millions of people get D.U.I,s which seems waaaay more possible than the above. 3. Either way the accident looks like her fault unless by any chance the other driver also had a seizure disorder, was under the influence and maybe had a parrot in the car ( a known driving distraction 🙂 figuring long odds against that I think it was prob a DUI, which explains no money for surgery and may explain losing her house, and why Watts name alone was on the 2nd house in case of possible outstanding judgements, if so her insurance on the Lexus was probably more than the “car allowance” and she was a dramatic liar and I bet he found out all about it when car insurance time rolled around. I can certainly see the drip, drip effect of being him. What a smart guy would have done is gotten a vasectomy and moved to Mexico where he,d stay until his family informed him that yes Chris there is a Santa Claus, Shannan is getting remarried, but nothing about him indicates any other call but going into a figurative fetal position and waiting for doomsday.
Sylvester ( no good deed goes unpunished) and you pretty much rock at research so do you know when Shannan bought the house in NC? See I’m thinking if it was by 08 then it was purchased in the crazy days of “stated income loans” etc. anyone with a pulse could grab a house way over their income, personally I don’t think she ever had a settlement, the 25k cash I think came from a pal 😃🍾 as for the furniture well if it was 2008 or earlier lines of credit for everybody ( who didn’t like to think ahead or understand variable rates) was pretty easy peasy. I’m working on a theory, hopefully Nick will get approached by family Watts soon and then he,ll write about it and I,ll know how right…or wrong 😳I am.
Maybe there was no ..accident..
And No you cannot get a driver’s license with seizures.
Chris was told about it, never witnessed it.
Hi ( normally spelled) Shannon 🙂 so far what I think is that there was prob a DUI, and a scammy house loan in NC and munchausens and Mbp by proxy for sure, no lupus no real illnesses on the girls, and I don’t buy his 2nd confession at all. What I do believe is that he really likes his in laws and feels bad, his mama in law co-signed for their stupid CO McMansion, then almost immediately turned around and declared bankruptcy, the beat ( of scams) goes on. And no I don’t believe per mama in law that knives and pistachios were scattered about at Watts parents house. So if she was this gens Betty Broderick and I think she was…what happened between 140 am and 5am. And I agree with Nick that the girls might not be those shadows in the driveway. And Because both Ruczek kids seem to be kind of off as does their mom and mental illness runs in families and she looks so textbook for…oh hell early days yet right?
Respectfully yours from the pondering pond 🙂
Kathleen…..funny.
Who do you think was behind asking mommy to co sign house…..Shanann. she knew how to play the Game.
That’s all she did, was play *the game*.
Screw everyone, me first, you second.
I don’t believe Chris’s looney 2nd story either.
Too bad the Watts wouldn’t do a TV interview. I think there more straight forward, and to be honest not liars.
Not to much dirt on them or family members…..yet.
I think all 3 dead before even leaving that house.
Hi Shannon, oh I think that it would have been our gal who came up with another humongous house that could never be afforded, that having worked out so well in NC but hey they don’t call it magical thinking for nothing! I,m glad you said that about the girls, this story has just begun I think, let us all remember Dr. ( as he actually made me address him) Jeffrey MacDonald, and the 14 years it took for the truth to out. I think our fine writer will have a damned encyclopedia wattania before this is over. And yeah you,re right, where’s the mental illness in his family? But I think the dignified silence is a good plan, when they talk it should be to Nick and when they go on my beloved ( don’t judge he,s so endearing!) Dr. Phil it should be with a nationally recognized criminal attorney, stranger things have happened!
😀😀😀
Kathleen
Shannon and Sly, I just looked up the CO law about driver’s licenses for people with a history of seizures. Problem with the law is that you have to TELL the DMV about it in CO, and most people don’t. Doctors aren’t required to report it either. Just now I realized I have a good friend with a history of seizures, and she’s even had one when driving, but she has a car and a license – I guess she’s never reported it to the DMV. Also, it varies by state, and some allow a license if you haven’t had a seizure for a certain length of time, but CO isn’t one of those states. So, having a license isn’t an absolute given that there’s no history of seizures apparently. People just don’t tell the truth.
Yes correct. If no doctor reports, no one knows.
Shanann would not tell them she had seizures….in that warped mind of hers.
Her life story, keeps getting wierder and wierder.
Could you image when the girls got older.
Omg, Shannon, I just thought of 2 other people I know who have epileptic seizures. One of them has seizures when she’s in a room with a strobe light. She walked into her daughter’s room once when she and my daughter had strobe light on – my daughter said she almost instantly started having the seizure. And that’s why WE now have their strobe light .Lol
They both drive everyday. They both have their license. Until today, I didn’t know they aren’t supposed to drive!
Ok don’t quote me. But certain medical conditions you aren’t allowed to drive. If you have one while driving…..Eeeeek. My gf can’t drive. If a doctor doesn’t say anything then no one knows. But they have a responsibility to report.
Thanks that was super nice of you, course now I have to wonder if it happened or was a story she told him. I,ve never actually met a man who ( oh crap here goes that word) thrives on women who seem to be wrecks, sick, injured, unemployed but I,ve heard of the white knight syndrome and maybe it made him feel like a hero till it didn’t and the drama and financial fiascos and a surgery she probably didn’t need and the girls being sick made it seem like a bad fairytale, enter the healthy, highly accomplished woman and….yup, or maybe yup, dunno I’m the queen of hypothesis 🙂
One place to look would be where she was living in 2010, and 2009. And was she a Rzucek or a King. Also what was she driving. But I don’t like the sound of blackout or seizure. He’s brought in a “they” so others know about the accident. I would think if she is prone to blackouts and seizures she would have had no business driving at all. According to Nickole A. she was still, currently, taking medication for headaches but I didn’t see any in her purse that morning, only the prescription for nausea.
Sylvester, here’s what came up about seizures and Lupus:
“Seizures associated with systemic lupus erythematosus (SLE) occur in 9 to 58% of patients in reported series, often early in the disease course. Approximately half of seizures reported in SLE patients are associated with infection and with metabolic or iatrogenic complications.”
I assume “they” to be medical professionals since that accident, if it indeed happened, sounds like it was serious enough for her to be transported to the ER. The gash on her forehead alone would be enough for LE to call an ambulance. They don’t mess around with possible head injuries.
Some nice research guys. If any one you are up for it, I’m looking for confirmation that Aubrey Onorati is a relative of Sandi’s:
https://www.facebook.com/KissLady130/about?lst=100000954467279%3A1406390160%3A1553283743§ion=living
Also the circumstances around her daughter Jyssica’s suicide.
https://twitter.com/Audrey130/status/5785329059504128
https://www.facebook.com/jyssica.livingston/about?lst=100000954467279%3A1384553110%3A1553285826§ion=overview
Audrey Onorati: “My daughter lived with me and died by Suicide on 8/12/16.”
My plate is pretty full at the minute researching the McCann case, so any effort in this area from you guys would be helpful.
@Nick
Aubrey refers to Sandi as “cuz” meaning cousin in a comment to her last fall. They seem fairly close so I’d assume 1st cousins, with their father’s being brothers. Jyssica suffered from depression. I found a review she left for a depression and bi-polar organization thanking them for providing education and information.
(I’m a little surprised and disturbed to find myself to be a pretty good facebook stalker.)
Thanks JC. Do you think you’ll be able to find the exact reference and paste the link….;-) Also if you can paste the link to that review….
Let’s see if this link works…
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10217945006762559&set=a.1611034161525&type=3&eid=ARByHbNkxliyQzzbtmP0h2DZHLanxAOooJXODPY23I3g6sIcRXXYglKpqO6UDsLrPhg7WxJGeCcpedaA
There are about 1200 reviews on their page, so I don’t think I can find a better link. This is from Jyssica’s page, though, so her personal review.
Depression and Bipolar Support Alliance (DBSA) (national headquarters) — 5 star
about 5 years ago
Real impressed with all the different types of information for living with this mental disease!
Like · Comment ·
1 Share
66
You rock at research! So that’s a sad story too, there seems to be mental illness in the family. Did anyone read the letter from Shannans mom in discovery about the razor blades and pistachio,s? These poor people seem kind of beset.
Yeah. It was a phone call from a detective, to cw, trying to establish identifying marks, whilst he was collecting physical data / info ( on all the three) for a missing person’s description… On the 14th of August, I think.
“Kathleen and Shannon, I didn’t figure on the neck surgery having something to do with the car accident. If it did then I wasn’t paying attention somewhere along the line. I thought the neck surgery was because she has a disc problem or something or other her mother mentioned. ”
Sly, a car crash can leave lasting damage. My niece was in a car accident 15 years ago – she was thrown from the truck – and has had a couple of neck surgeries since. They’re trying to get approval for another nerve ablation to address the chronic pain. Such an event can definitely have long-lasting damage.
Perhaps SW perceived in CW a tendency to be chivalrous, so she played the damsel in distress.
Slyvester, i have typed in every name and many words. Can’t find anything.
Maybe there was …no accident?
But then why her have neck surgery.
SHE LIED ABOUT THINGS, people. She made up health and medical problems because it gave her sympathy and backpats and excuses.
Factitious disorder. The signs are all there.
No arguments here, you call it factious I call it Munchausens but what’s in a name right? Oh and I don’t know who it was who made the fertility comment but yeah…uhm that story made me shake my head too. I see why she picked Watts, he,s the sort of fellow we San Fransicans are always selling our bridge too 🙂 I keep thinking there’s a thread, pull it everything unravels, we find the truth, that,s what usually happens, a little while after the canonization stuff wears off. But this case, geez, I think Nick will have 15 books because in a year or two people will crawl out the woodwork to tell him things. Possibly watts himself though he,s a sorry source so far.
The only avenue I can think of is searching county records of a possible lawsuit filed resulting from the accident. It would be filed in her name, in the county where the accident occurred. If she did have a head or a spinal disc injury, she would likely have an accident and injury lawyer would sue the insurer for any future medical expense she might incur as a result of the accident, as well as reimbursing her from any time she lost from work.
Insurance would also end up paying her the amount of medical expenses, even after they’ve already paid that amount out directly to care providers. These are things most insurance companies won’t compensate for unless pushed into it by injury liability attorneys. I don’t know if you’d find out the amount of the settlement, though, if they settled before it went to court. That often happens in those types of cases. Those injuries are bad enough that the settlement would easily be 6 figures. She wouldn’t have to pay the lawyers up front, but they take a third of any amount she’s awarded.
I just have a feeling she would have done this if the accident did indeed occur.
Uhm….The man decides the sex of the baby. You can’t just wish for a boy. It’s either a girl or boy. Chris (sperm) in any man, decides the sex.
I read from Sandi’s letter that they sold all there stuff, but kept the house ( made payments) while spending a 1.5 years living with the Watts.
No reason as to why.
Not sure what year Shanann had surgery. But I can’t find Anything on it.
“Not sure what year Shanann had surgery. But I can’t find Anything on it.”
If it’s the neck thing, we can back into the latest possible date by examining her pics of herself wearing a neck brace. Also, that friend of hers moved in for 2 months to assist during her recovery – her dates are around, but I’d have to go look them up…
Yes Ralph, I have to investigate her neck surgery. I’ve seen those videos, just have to backtrack. But I’m thinking of the accident, what year.
I think in the phone interview with her friend in Hawaii, she said she was at there house after the surgery in August/September 2017. Hope you can find the year the accident happened Shannon. If it predates her house, it’s possible she sued and received a 6 figure settlement – that would explain how she was able to finance a huge house when she was only 25.
I can’t find anything, anywhere.
Still looking.
“the year the accident happened Shannon. If it predates her house, it’s possible she sued and received a 6 figure settlement – that would explain how she was able to finance a huge house when she was only 25.”
Excellent observation, JC. That reminds me – I met a family who lived in a really nice neighborhood, big house, pool, etc. A mutual friend traveled with them back home to NY for vacation and detected significant strain in the wife’s family relationships – apparently, she’d been in a car accident and sued and won a big payout, but her family didn’t approve, thought it was unethical and taking advantage or something. And wahlah – big house.
I think the unethical part isn’t actually suing, but blowing the whole settlement on a house and filling the house up with furniture. Put the lion’s share into a retirement fund or something. If she DOES need expensive medical care in the future as a result of that accident, she may be surprised when her medical coverage won’t cover the pre-existing condition. That’s either karma or a big flaw in our current health care insurance system. Maybe both!
To act as though the plans for Cassie and Josh to live in the Watts home temporarily came about in the days just before the murders is wrong. Chris and Shan’ann had agreed their friends could stay with them until they found a house long before Shan’ann’s trip to Arizona! I also saw where Josh had double checked with Chris to make sure it wouldn’t put a burden on him. Chris reiterated the arrangement was fine. As for it being only Chris’s house? Lolol! Chris was married, it belonged to both Chris and Shan’ann, that’s how the laws work. Not that it even matters, but perhaps Shan’ann provided the down payment money for the house. She brought in a paycheck prior to Thrive too, I’m sure that helped provide for the family as well.
As for Shan’ann blocking the Watts on Facebook? Nope. Cindy Watts blocked Shan’ann. Ronnie was bothered by it too, he followed the girls on Facebook and usually commented about them on Shan’ann’s posts about them. I don’t believe for one minute that Shan’ann was totally innocent when it came to the fighting between herself and Chris’s family. But I do know that some people become more laid back with age, more open to compromise and turning the other cheek, too bad Cindy couldn’t do that. As a grandma myself, I think it’s just sad that Shan’ann and Cindy couldn’t find a neutral place and just get along for the grandkids visit. Shan’ann made it about herself. Cindy made it about herself too. As a result, the grandparents didn’t attend the last birthday little CeCe would ever celebrate. I’m sure the Watts have regrets now, if they don’t then they’re defective like their son.
I can easily see why Chris felt he couldn’t just leave or just get a divorce. Biggest problem with Chris and Shan’ann was that Chris up and changed the rules in the middle of the game and neglected to tell Shan’ann. He didn’t want to be controlled by Shan’ann anymore, but he neglected to tell Shan’ann. He had a new boss – Nichol! Of course I’m not justifying the murders, just saying I see why he avoided confrontation. I’ve wondered how long Chris and Nichol would’ve stayed together. Imo Nichol would’ve kicked him to the curb pretty quick once she got to know the real Chris. I just don’t think she would’ve been happy with someone who didn’t seem to be as strong and assertive as her.
I agree. I have a daughter and a daughter in law and 4 grandchildren. I treat my daughter in law the same as my daughter, I believe the responsibility is on me to get along with my sons wife. I would never intentionally hurt her because it hurts my son as well. I would never let him know if I didn’t like her, why do that. I do think Cindy was trying to antagonize Shan’ann. I don’t understand what she got out of that but I can’t imagine that she wouldn’t feel horrible about it now but she may not. You could tell in Chris’s interview that it played a part in what happened. I don’t know how a person could live with that
I dunno…ive enjoyed reading your stuff but I just don’t understand this. You’re actually lending creedence to the idea that leaving the family wasn’t an option? Obviously it would be difficult, but much more pleasant than a triple homicide. Get it together, man.
I just don’t understand this.>>>And you think that’s my fault?
If you don’t “get” what he’s saying, this probably isn’t the blog for you.
I’m not trying to pick on you personally-more of a “vibe” I get here sometimes-I’m just being honest here but do you realize that that sounds really snobby? You’re basically saying she/he isn’t smart enough to be here because he expressed something that we’ve probably all struggled with in this case.
You’re basically saying she/he isn’t smart enough to be here>>>He was the one who said “I just don’t understand” and “get it together”.
Do you think after 6 books and hundreds of blogs the notion that Watts himself thought just leaving his family wasn’t an option *isn’t* a credible notion? So he committed murder even though he thought leaving was a more credible option? So why didn’t he exercise his more credible option?
Graham: The triple homicide is what *happened*. That’s *reality*. We accept reality as it is. We’re here to try and understand why it happened.
For whatever reason, CW did not feel that leaving the family was a valid option. If he *had* felt it was a valid option, he would have done that instead.
He didn’t. So there’s no point to insisting that CW *COULD* have done this or that other thing – he didn’t. So there’s no point or purpose to such speculations – they are worthless.
We’re trying to understand why CW felt that triple homicide was his best option.
Randos who show up to bray about how “Chris was BAD and WRONG for murdering his family” contribute *nothing*. They’re worse than useless because they take up valuable space with their nothing.
I think your article is horse shit. Yes….Chris could have just left. Who cares if she was controlling? If she really was that controlling and he didn’t like it….pack up and leave. If neither could afford the house, sell it and split the profit. If there had to be a custody battle, then so be it. If she had to give up her lifestyle she was used to, oh well. If you have to file for divorce then file. It is what it is. You do what you gotta do.
There was a way out, for both of them. There always is.
I’ve known people who had been married for 20 years with little ones. They weren’t compatible anymore so they got a divorce. Plain and simple.
Stop writing such stupid shit. The case is over. He did it. He confessed. He’s a psycho. He’s paying the price, as he should. Now everyone should just drop it and go on with whatever they were doing in their lives before this happened. RIP Shanann, Bella CeeCee and Nico.
^ Useless.
Next.
Ralph on his mini roll response here.
Wonderful…….lol.
Hey, great comments .
L.O.L
Yes! Thanks for the laugh tonight, Ralph. Dear God, we know he did it, the million dollar question and the whole point is *why* did he do it. It doesn’t matter if there was another way out, Chris didn’t choose that, so here we are.
Telling everyone to drop it then writing about it on a forum – somebody needs to be consistent. And a little less rude while you’re at it!
Denise, so your response is there is nothing to be gained by trying to understand why someone did what they did? Especially someone who did something particularly heinous…someone just like you or me, living beside you or me, in a life similar to yours or mine? We should just let it go because they are dead, he is in jail, justice has been served, and life goes on?
What do we learn from it as a collective society, how do we move beyond it with a better understanding of how to reduce/eliminate those contributing factors, and do we say enough is enough just because someone like you comes along to say you want nothing to do with personal growth or understanding; therefore, neither should we.
Everyone should just mind their own business, put their blinders back on, bury their heads back in the sand, and let life get back to the way it was. Is that your advice? Forgive me then for wanting better for myself, better for you, and better for everyone here with me.
I believe a lot of the unknown people that show up here to start a problem come from a particular subreddit about Shannan. Every now and then I stop in and see if the ignorance has cleared up a bit and I’ll see someone post an article from this blog praising it for being an in depth analysis. Then the crazies come out, the ones that refuse to believe they were in over their head financially, that the MLM wasn’t the elephant in the room, that Shannan was making 500k a year etc. They call him a heartless monster, bring religion into a place where it wasn’t relevant – you know the drill. I don’t have to tell you guys, you know the type. Anything factual or based in reality gets downvoted and the two mods delete the post. These people seem to never learn anything, and they don’t see the cognitive dissonance at play.
Its extremely biased and it leaks out onto Nick’s blog and while they want their space respected, they don’t extend that courtesy to others. What’s more, they don’t even read through the blog and all the wonderful information available to us because Nick took the time to gather it, study it and present it in an organized way. You’d think that people could respect one another’s space and if they disagree, do it civilly by explaining your position with fact based examples, but since they can’t do that due to having no facts or it doesn’t fit their bias, they lash out.
There’s really no excuse for the behavior though.
Thanks for the heads-up TinyTech. I actually got booted out of Reddit, from a True Crime forum as it happened. All I was really doing was sharing my work to the Reddit, at the time I think it was Shakedown related and I soon got flagged. They accused me of spamming them, and sort of cynically, greedily trying to sell books. I was like, ummmm…this is a true crime reddit…I’m sharing my professional research with you for free. You don’t want it? And the response was I don’t really know who you are wannabe, fuck off. So I did.
So when folks come here with an attitude, yeah, I don’t have a very high tolerance. There’s the little backstory to where some of my no nonsense attitude to nonsense comes from. Unfortunately there is a lot of it out there. The point is, it didn’t emerge in a vacuum.
I work pretty hard as most of you know, and would just appreciate a little respect for hard won information. I don’t expect people to be sycophants, or to agree, just mind your manners as you would with anyone else, and be respectful.
When uninformed folks come here and make cheap arguments about whose side we are on, or victim blaming, there doesn’t seem to be much point in engaging with them, especially not 6 months down the line. But all of that is a given.
What really gets my goat are the folks who have known me for years, know me and know my work, who read my books and who on a particular day will find themselves differing on a particular point, and then will lose it and go post a pernicious review on Amazon. That sort of childish and spiteful behavior calls into question why a blog like this should even exist, and whether the greater good actually exists in society. I would like to believe it does, and it can, but reality is often disappointing. We should expect more not only from our fellow man, but more from ourselves don’t you think?
Nick, I think this forum here is ideal for what you’re trying to do. You’ve attracted a nice little community that shares your goals and objectives and can engage with the material you present. It’s kind of a rare thing, as you’ve discovered from your foray onto reddit. Whenever you’re addressing angles others don’t like, there’s always the possibility that those who are particularly attached to their own opinions will simply try to silence you – it sounds like that happened to you on reddit. It’s happened to me before as well – just present evidence that a cult is a cult and see how fast the cult members will get you removed! Sometimes people become hostile when presented with evidence that their thought processes could be improved instead of simply adjusting their thought processes and benefiting from that – it’s quite strange. “Here is something that will help you do things better.” “How dare you!”
Sometimes you need to carve out your own little niche somewhere on the ‘net.
[Note: Although Cheryl has been banned, I’ve part-published this comment just to illustrate some of the comments I’m getting in my trash folder.]
It just amazes me how you can have such razor-sharp insights regarding various true crime characters but seemingly have so little when it comes to your own behavior… As I have said before, I have not and will not lash out by lodging poor reviews on Amazon, because a) your books are good and b) any damage that may be done to your career will ultimately be your own doing…
Hi Cheryl, well I thought that was a nice honest post. The thing is though writers aren’t by nature ( and probably less so) diplomats. We,re just people who write books. And have feelings like everyone else and if someone at the office or a resturant says your work is garbage you,re shocked and hurt. Writers and musicians and filmmakers have to risk it more because of Amazon now just like cafes do because of Yelp etc. But we don’t do blogs,because you,re asking for a second place to be hit, and that’s scary. I heard Norman Mailer just punched book critics back in his day. But my friend Joe McGinnis one of the greatest true crime writers of ever was stalked to his grave by Palin supporters and Janet Malcolm fans. That Nick does run the blog shows courage he wants to create discussions and it’s fun isn’t It? But it’s not Reddit or Twitter it’s a real person running it and so naturally a real person will care, bite, be annoyed, have a laugh, all those things. So anyway that’s my two cents, maybe we could have a more civil life in general if people saw people at the other side of the computer, or maybe not cuz ( blush) I sure love the Twitter site Devin Nunez,s cow! 😂
Thanks for your comments Kathleen.
I think what a lot of people don’t realize is they think one sniping comment from them is harmless, and it’s just one little criticism – why is it triggering an “overreaction”. They don’t realize the same writer is bombarded with the same thing from many different people constantly. And social media and email means these bombardments are particularly constant.
For some reason true crime attracts personal attack a lot more than any other genre. For example if you impinge on the narrative that the victim wasn’t perfect in all ways, it spoils the narrative that they were innocent and didn’t deserve to die. No one deserves to die! But no one is wholly good, or innocent either.
There is definitely a popular mythology that victims in crime echo a kind of totemic victimhood in the world, and in certain sectors of society, and so to diminish the rights of the victim to total victimhood one is somehow minimizing the crime, the victim and this Victim Psychology. It’s more comforting and easy to place the blame entirely on the criminal.
What decent true crime tries to do is show the mechanisms and dynamics at work that caused conveyors, gears and levers to activate leading to criminality. It’s showing the syetem, the process, the why behind how ordinary people much like us are moved and shaken and driven to commit crimes, and the why behind how the ultimate victims become part of “accidents waiting to happen”. In other words, there is a kind of action-reaction cause-and-effect scenario at work.
Those who like to blame the perpetrator want cause-and-effect in the realm of justice and punishment, but they refuse to see the other dimension, the other side of the coin, that for his own reasons he feels blame, anger, resentment, malice [whatever] towards the victim, and that the murder is his only option [it’s deserved, justified]. By understanding these processes we may be able to avoid them or neutralize them [or simply recognize and prosecute them when they happen].
Analogous to this is the reader “blaming” the writer for unfairly victimizing them. Again, they fail to see the other side of the coin. Besides the writer sweating blood to provide his “gift” [which is being scorned], he’s also being scorned by a plurality who disagree with some of the details of his premise, in some cases all of it. This adds up, and accumulates, but the reader has no idea about it because in their mind they are just one. You’re not. Each comment or criticism forms part of larger, and quite deafening din. In true crime, this leads to murder. In the heart and mind of a true crime writer, it simply leads to disaffection.
Nick, your worst critics seem incapable of accepting reality. They open with “Chris didn’t need to murder them” and go from there, explaining to one and all how many options Chris had and how he should have simply chosen one of those instead.
But that’s the purest waste of time there is! Completely irrelevant at this point, because Chris *did* murder them. It’s done. Over. Fact.
It slays me that these people can’t seem to accept the facts.
Nick, that was just….fucking eloquent! I think you should consider being a writer! Sorry couldn’t resist, but really that was far too good a piece of writing for any blog even yours, don’t let this site ( fab as it is) burn you out, you have 3 or 4 ( hundred) books to write before you rest. Ya know when I was researching Zahau on the patch, yikes dem people were mean, but anyway I began answering in limericks, more words rhyme with punt and Nantucket than are dreamt of in our philosophy. Stay happy you rock at this.
[More from Cheryl]…
I’m having trouble separating the author from the asshole.
“In the heart and mind of a true crime writer, it simply leads to disaffection.”
That’s such a very reasonable emotional or intellectual response to unreasonably negative and scornful reviews, especially so if they are not only anonymous, but well written, premeditated, “murder by words”. And writers by nature are especially moved by words, so they are even a more effective and vicious weapon. One extremely gifted writer, an Iowa Writer’s Workshop grad, showed me the bulletin board in her office completely filled with only negative reviews of her work. Some were hilarious taken out of context, and some were extraordinarily well written and biting condemnations of both her and her writing. I think it’s a really creative way to embrace something that used to cause her so much distress. She’s especially fond of the reviews with the word *bitch* since it’s there to remind her she’s not a man. I think she would love Cheryl’s comment to you and embrace it by putting it on her board – it’s even gender neutral, and of course everyone needs a daily reminder that they’re an asshole, right?
There are so many funny comments from this blog over the past months, ranging from intelligent to ridiculous, I wish they could be compiled like bloopers. One of my favs, and there are many…. “She couldn’t fight back because she had paper bags on her hands!!” I find myself laughing unexpectedly during some of the most morbid discussions on here…so thanks Nick. I applaud your patience and reserve in some cases, as well as your quick witted assessments of some of the absurdities you have to deal with. Hopefully you know without a doubt, what a unique community of “randos” you’ve created here!
So your friends and acquaintances shouldn’t leave honest reviews? They may know you and also find your writing to be amateurish and dull. If there’s real talent it’s not hard to rise above mixed reviews.
I don’t mind honesty, I appreciate it.
I don’t mind 1 star reviews from people who know me or don’t know me. I do mind malicious, spiteful reviews and troll reviews. I mind very much 1 person writing 20+ negative reviews and apparently continuing to “read” my work because it’s so bad, just so it can be reviewed and everyone warned about it. I do mind about that.
The other part of your argument, if you think the work is poor, go somewhere else and leave me and this site alone. I mean, what are you doing here? All the work on this blog could have been sold in easily 3 to 4 other books, purchased rather than Googled, but it’s offered here for the interest and enjoyment and discussion of others. If the work done here leads to folks being – what did you say? – bored because it’s amateurish and dull and lacking real talent then by all means let me know and I can get back to only writing books, and right now, I sort of am. I don’t have to spend 2-3 hours of my day loading up content here, I really don’t.
I am for the most part mostly done with posting regularly at this site. It’s not going to please everyone, so if it doesn’t please you, be my guest and fuck off. You don’t have to be here and I don’t either. If you don’t find what you want here, find something online you like and spend your time there. Why do you want to be a hater here?
Nick, please don’t stop the blog, I totally get how counterintuitive it is to do this and write books, I couldn’t do it, very few writers can, that’s why no one has blogs, the research and writing drain you dry, but you do it and it’s no ordinary blog, it’s writing, it’s fabulous, I,m sure I won’t be the only one who asks you not to stop. Hey I had a reviewer tell me my writing was so bad she had to throw out her kindle ( the WHOLE kindle and maybe it was even a paper white! And they are so nice) me I would have just gotten an exorcism-cuz they are free! People either love or hate the books they read, it’s not really ( weirdly) a middle groundish sort of thing but you,re a very good author, you,re doing exactly what you were born to do, so please keep doing it.
I think both Chris and Shannan pushed each other against the wall. On top of that families on both side didn’t really help much either. One would take any chances to put up a fight with Shannan and the other probably knew a lot going wrong with their marriage/family but didn’t give them much help/advice. Things kept getting escalated & ready to “explode” any moment. Then the desperated slutty NK jumped in….jealous with their “appear/Facebook” perfect/beautiful family” & unreluctant to destroy it at all costs. Poor Shannan & the kids, everything was very bad timing….Chris’s getting best of shape, catching NK’s eyes, the pregnancy, the long NC vacation, the finance burden….All the routine/bearable became so unbearable for both. Regardless, I feel deeply sad & sorry for what happened to Shannan & kids. How could a man did such horrific acts to his own family?
So you *really* think a sultry smoky siren could have taken – *taken*! – a family man away from his family?
That he was just a passive, helpless jellyfish when faced with her wicked wiles?
So CW had no agency here, it seems. Great. He’s completely powerless in the face of a sexy seductress. Oh, if *only* he could have worked from home!!
Not buying it. It takes TWO to tango, yanno.
About 15 years ago in my home town of Melbourne Australia a man named John Sharpe killed his wife and infant child,.He made the following comments afterwards:
“You know what you’re doing is sort of insane, but there’s just this weird part of you that’s almost unstoppable or something,”
“You’re almost like on automatic pilot.”
When asked why he killed his daughter he replied :“I don’t really know. Irrational bloody madness,”
Scarily similiar sentiments to CW, dont you think???
“When asked why he killed his daughter he replied :“I don’t really know. Irrational bloody madness,”
Scarily similiar sentiments to CW, dont you think???”
I DO think. I’m reminded of this heinous atrocity over here from some decades ago, where Charles Rothenberg, who had his son Dave for visitation, took him out of state without permission (a violation of the terms of visitation). When he spoke with his wife on the phone and she realized they were in CA instead of in NY, she told him he’d never see his son again after this – and he gave his son a sleeping pill, doused him with kerosene and set him ablaze: http://community.seattletimes.nwsource.com/archive/?date=19900122&slug=1052088
I saw an interview with him where he claimed that he was outside looking at the fire and thinking, “Wait – *I* am supposed to be in there, too!” All he could think of, he said, was his ex-wife’s ugly face and yelling voice. Now he just claims he was “too much of a coward” to go through with the planned murder-suicide. It appears that the phone fight with his ex was the proximate cause of this terrible outcome – what a thing for her to live with. He wanted to make her suffer. <– That's the part of the story that your comment brought to mind.
Dave died last fall – he was 42 – of pneumonia. Interestingly enough, he had become friends with Michael Jackson not too long after the attack, and Michael was very kind and supportive, encouraged him to express himself through the arts. He apparently helped out with Michael's "Captain Eo" feature that was part of a DisneyWorld attraction for some years (you can see it on Youtube – kind of "Thriller" meets "Muppets in Space") and says that Dave refused his offer to name him in the credits.
His dad is still alive, but is now serving a life sentence in prison for other crimes.
There is a fine line between understanding and justifying and some of these comments, unwittingly or not, do the latter. People say he wasn’t planning on killing the kids because of what apartment NK found for him-meaning he was planning on divorce and living with the kids? I doubt it-he was probably just going along with what she was doing but I don’t think he considered divorce seriously. There’s 0 evidence of it. This is a guy who said, when asked how the leak was going that morning-he texted “Fresh. Lol.” Having just buried her. That’s a private joke with himself, he thinks it’s funny. He was never going to not kill them too. And if he wasn’t, well, he didn’t give a shit either did he?
I think that yes he was an introvert who couldn’t or wouldn’t stand up for himself, and got caught between families. It would have been hard for him to tell everyone the truth. But the fact is: it was easier for him to kill his kids. He never wanted a divorce. He wanted them all “vanished”. If that’s the “easy way out” for anyone in any situation, and if he didn’t find that traumatic but funny (as evidenced in his messages and blatant laughing on the news), then being introverted and “locked in” helps me understand only a bit. (I know Nick isn’t claiming it should.)
I think he was much more manipulative than many think and people are seeing him as he wants to be seen-just an even-keel, ordinary guy who was pushed/pulled too hard-almost a shrinking wallflower. But he is far more capable than I think many realize. He says “oh I didn’t handle the finances” and acts like he didn’t know how-untrue. He was several conversations with USAA, he got her to send him the auto insurance card for the Lexus that re-started Aug 15th 2018, he knew exactly how much life insurance was on all 3 of them as well, as mentioned in his interview on the 14th. People said very similar things about Scott Peterson-NEVER got angry, reserved.. Similar family dynamics as well. Nobody feels bad for him so why do people feel so bad for Chris? To the point where he is a victim, which is exactly how he he wants to be seen. Looking at his internet/messages is the closest thing we will have to knowing what he was thinking and he is no scared little boy. I’m an introvert and I loathe confrontation and would rather give public speeches and share a room for a year than harm my dog. So yes it contributes, but I personally think people are still being played by him a bit. Don’t come for me!
I only really agree with some of what you say, even though you do make some good points.
But – who on earth sees Chris as a victim???
Looking for reasons rather than accepting black and white caricatures of people doesn’t mean we feel sorry for him. Far from it.
Searching for understanding is all we are doing here.
Attempting to understand why CW did what he did is a whole ‘nother kettle of asparagus from “feeling so bad for Chris”. It would be smart for you to try to understand nuance once.
I believe there is a tendency to think introverts are very deep, complex, and thoughtful people who spend a great deal of time in their heads theorizing on the great mysteries of life. While that may be true for some, Chris Watts is about as deep as a puddle. He may even be as intelligent as he claims but then the term “brilliant idiot” comes to mind. If it’s not mechanical, black or white, yes or no…Chris is lost and must default to his mechanical settings. He must decide with his black or white thinking characteristically untroubled with emotional projections. How else would this dolt come out with Confession #2 (or 52?!) and not realize how utterly horrific, beyond what he had already admitted, it would be for everyone? Now he’s on suicide watch, again, because he didn’t realize this before he spun his tales? In his case, still waters don’t run deep, puddles hardly make a ripple.
But what if he is smarter than we give him credit for? Nick wants us to step outside ourselves when analyzing this case, and I think he does a great job if it. He pointed out that even though the second confession is horrid, it feeds into the “spur of the moment thing”. Even if it’s horrible beyond our comprehension, it’s still better than premeditation, plotting and scheming to kill your wife and children. Remember, we only know what we’ve been told about the case and since there was no trial and no public allocution by Watts, we don’t know every single thing that occurred. Bare with me here, but perhaps he picked that version of events because he believes it does away with premeditation. Whether it actually does or not has been argued, however if Chris thinks it shows a lack of planning, it may feed into moves he’s about to make that we don’t know about. Perhaps that confession was picked because it will benefit him down the line or even now. We’re not the DA we only know what we’ve been told, so this could be just one small piece of a bigger puzzle. I understand that people think CW is dumb, and while he may not fit into the standard mold of what society defines as smart, he’s smarter than most give him credit for. So maybe this is part of a bigger picture that has yet to be revealed. Introvert or not, I think NVL did a great job of showing us that CW does care about the public’s outward perception of him. You can see that when LE mentions Chris’ colleagues having to go retrieve the bodies, and also in how he related towards others prior to the murders. It seems that people thinking highly of him was of decent importance to Chris. With that in mind, it clashes with him giving such a gruesome second confession, a confession that doesn’t really add up and is most likely only partially true. So why would he tell such a tale? I believe he tells it because it will benefit him at some point down the road and because in Chris’ mind it takes away any planning or premeditation.
Like Nick says, what we think or what we would do in his position doesn’t really matter, we’re not Chris. But through analyzing Chris’s past behavior, demeanor and reasonings, we can attempt to put ourself in CWs headspace. If we can do that, then we’ve got a better chance at understanding and uncovering the many unknowns in this case.
I hope im explaining myself sufficiently and not coming off harsh as that isn’t my intention.
Yes, TT, I think you explained yourself very well and did not come off as harsh at all! By suggesting that Chris is not deep was not meant to undermine his intelligence. To me, there is an obvious disconnect in his emotional wiring allowing himself only to go so far in his thinking about what effect his actions will have upon anything or anyone.
For an example, he’s so worried about what everyone will think of him that he feels he must like everyone in return. Those who are close to him basically made his choice for him. He pursued Shan’ann because he recognized that she didn’t immediately like him; his mechanical response kicked in…she will like me! He pursued Nichol because she resisted his charms [email to CW from NK: (paraphrased) “I want what you have with your beautiful family, let’s back off each other and keep what’s becoming too friendly just work friendly.”] mechanical response, fueled by his libido, she will like me!
His children were disposed of in a similarly dispassionate/mechanical sense. He is basically a machine and can make more babies. Non-defective babies. I can imagine him telling Nichol, “I’ll do anything for you.” and meaning it without thinking through the consequences of his actions.
If there is an argument that he thought of the house as primarily his because Shan’ann could never have obtained it on her own credit, he could very well have used a similar argument in his mind that the kids were primarily his because Shan’ann was told she could never have kids. In both instances he might claim ownership/responsibility.
This all comes from mechanical thinking rather than emotional thinking. Black or white. Yes or no. That was the point of my comment. “Rain Man” was a good mechanic, had an amazing capacity for numbers, had great recall…all mechanical thinking. Not one person has associated an emotional response with Chris Watts. As a matter of fact, the opposite has been noted. He can produce a sniffle if someone brings it to his attention…
Disclaimer: I know he’s not entirely robotic and has shown signs of what appear to be true emotion, they are just so tellingly rare that it gives rise to the theory that he’s very stunted emotionally.
Part of what you say resonates with me. I’m not saying I thought he was a completely normal guy who was just a victim of circumstance, but I didn’t think he was particularly ‘abnormal’. However, when he said in the most recent ‘confession’ that perhaps Shanann was praying while he was strangling her, just for a second his mask slipped, and for the briefest moment I got a glimpse of what lies beaneath his veneer or normality. It wasn’t pretty.
Matt, I think your comment above was very thoughtful. Hunches, intuition, perceptions – are all valid. Chris Watts certainly isn’t all one thing. He isn’t entirely the person staring back at us from his wonder years working on cars and having a dream to work for Nascar. He had a mask on. We don’t know for how long, but you saw what lies beneath and good for you.
Sideaffected, Excellent post! “There is a fine line between understanding and justifying and some of these comments, unwittingly or not, do the latter.” It is shocking how many comments here do exactly that.
Let’s assume for the sake of argument, that that is what we’re doing here. This site and those who comment here was set up to defend Chris Watts, and the books written to justify why he was right to murder his wife and children. I mean, if you really think that then why are you here? There are plenty of other places to go where you can join Team Shan’ann or whatever team you wish to be on. I’m certainly not going to waste time with people who suggest or are not sure what the research here is in aid of. If you believe it’s victim blaming or justifying murder, you clearly have no business at a site called TRUE CRIME ROCKET SCIENCE, and you probably have no interest in detailed research, or the nuances of criminal psychology.
As I said, there are hundreds of places online and YouTube videos that focus on a shallow, one-dimensional bashing of the either the victims or the perpetrator, and they’re very obvious about where their allegiances lie. Wouldn’t you be much happier there?
I totally agree. Especially Shannon…
Excellent post.
Let’s not forget that Shanann had spoken to a divorce attorney she randomly met in April 2018 at a restaurant. If they had divorced, there would have been no way to keep that house and she knew it. A family court judge would look at income from both parties and decree a certain amount of child support. Maybe they could have worked out an arrangement where she lived in the house, with Shanann and the Rosenbergs sharing expenses. I don’t know. What usually happens is that both parties downgrade to live separately, unless they’re terribly wealthy. It’s unfortunate, but that’s life. She wasn’t entitled to get the whole house and have Chris pay for all of it.
I also want to comment that I have always found it strange that the Wattses and their circle of friends did so much residence-sharing. It’s not a lifestyle I’m familiar with. Maybe in one’s 20s, you share an apartment, but the families living with other families is odd.
One wonders however, how such an introvert could get such a massive tattoo spread all across his shoulder blades, and two other rather large tattoos on each arm? Something that large is meant to be seen, especially when you are swimming and going shirtless. It says “look at me”, not “don’t look at me”. That particular Metallica symbol also says “I like heavy metal, and I’m edgy, maybe a little dangerous.”
Some people use them as an expression. I have 4 tats. There are addictive thou.
Maybe he was ecpresses his manliness.
Shannon you say you’re a tattoo lover. Just think before you ink! You probably know that a tattoo on a woman’s lower back just above her rear is called a “Tramp stamp”. I saw an ad once and it was the back view of an old woman, probably in her 70, she probably weighed 80 pounds soaking wet – scary skinny! She was wearing a bikini and she had a Tramp stamp that read:
“FOREVER 18” I thought that was hilarious! No doubt she got inked in her much younger years. Funny thing is – I can’t even remember what the ad was advertising because I was laughing too hard. So, think long and hard before you get that tat!
Hi Diana.
No tat there.
One on my ankle/leg ..native Indian art, with roses going thru it.
Arms, one native Indian art…other heart with thorne thru it, with a teardrop of blood.
One more hiding….a happy devil…short tail wanted long tail….to much pain.
My tats all black and red
Diana, I think that was an SNL skit from many years ago! I only recall it because it was hilarious and stuck with me, too!
“Just think before you ink! You probably know that a tattoo on a woman’s lower back just above her rear is called a “Tramp stamp”. ”
An inlaw got one of those when she was about 20 – it ended up quite large, much larger than she originally intended.
And it triggered rheumatoid arthritis, which she struggles with to this day, decades later.
Definitely think before you ink.
Darn. Expressing.
I think we’re trying to understand why he did it, not why we would or wouldn’t have done it. Understanding doesn’t mean justifying. Or agreeing with. It’s an inquiry. So back to that, Watts still doesn’t mention much about financial influences does he in his confessions. Yet NK suspected them (financial influences). He must have felt free to tell her he couldn’t afford an apartment, that his wife spent money as fast as he made it and they were in a house they couldn’t afford. Other influences would have been the need to save face, keep face, put on a face, but the reality was more like being hit in the face over and over.
I was just wondering what Triggered Chris to decide murder. Did he see a tv show, read an article or the news.
Where did he get that idea?
What made him think that way.
Sure we all at one time think like that, but luckily we don’t.
Only the few…..do it.
Just came across on YouTube..Jay is 4 justice.
I had heard quite awhile ago, Chris gave his parents a letter before the murders, not to opened unless something happened to him.
Chris Watts secret letter found.
I ams ure if Shanann’s parents provided such a letter, some of us would have screamed “Doctored”. Heard Scott Peterson’s parents now have a letter too. Preposterous!
No a letter to His parents.
Interesting…..and he’s an introvert kind of guy
Nick (or Mr. Van der Leek, not sure which you prefer) have you seen Levels “income disclosure statement?” MLMs are supposed to publish them, and a while back I had found a brief synopsis of their income disclosure (IDS from here on out) yet after reading this article, I went looking for it and it’s just… gone. I don’t think that’s a coincidence, Just like I don’t think it’s a coincidence that they never addressed the public regarding Shananns murder. That’s why these companies “thrive” (pun intended) because they get free advertising and unpaid work by making their consultants think they’re employees, yet they’re actually independent contractors. So you bust your butt for them, but get no guarantee of pay, no job security, no benefits, no paid time off etc. They then take all those horrible little things and wrap them up in the “Be your own Boss!! Make your own hours and work from home!!!” Facade. The people who continuously get sucked into these scams are of a certain “breed” if you will. In my mid twenties I dated someone who very much bought into the MLM lie of “Ultimate Freedom, maximum pay and minimum work” that these pyramid schemes so often advertise. I was always taught that nothing worth having comes easy, and things that come easy aren’t worth having.
Anyway, one day after a few months of dating he asks me how much “we” have in savings. I asked him why he thought my savings were communal all of a sudden, when he never contributed a dime. He was horrible with money and that was one of the many factors that led me to end it. He then tells me him and his other financially ignorant friend, who very much played up the “wealthy” facade were starting up their own business. A week or so later he tells me we need to pay “our dues” and he needs $250 from me. I inquire as to why, and he basically tells me it’s the monthly fee for this business. Come to find its exactly what I told him it was, a pyramid scheme and if he signed me up without permission – well he better reverse it real quick because I don’t believe in “Get Rich Quick” schemes. I should never have to pay my boss for the “privilege” of working for them.
A common denominator my horrible ex (hey, I was young, you live and you learn) had with Shanann and other MLMers was the desire to become rich without putting in the work, and a need to show off constantly. I grew up in a very wealthy prominent east coast family. Talking about money was seen as a faux pas, a huge no-no, Just as bragging about financials or grotesque displays of wealth were seen as crass and tacky. My father and his equally (if not more) wealthy friends would never be caught bragging (on camera, no less) about the cost of their cars or their home, or how much they spent on their last vacation. Yet my ex, who was broke as a joke, would often lie and tell everyone within earshot about his latest purchase or expenditure. He could hardly pay his bills, had horrible credit, an 18 year old truck with a ridiculously high APR – you get the picture I’m due. Like Shanann he was always bragging, scheming, robbing Peter to pay Paul and had a very warped view of reality. The only person he was fooling was himself, and he had a huge issue with introspection. He would be hyper critical of everyone, but if you even dare suggest that he should try to better himself – Well, you’d see a tantrum of epic proportions.
Also, like Shannan, he was obsessed with labels. He couldn’t understand why I’d get a brand new Honda over a used Acura, why I chose to save money over spend it, why I’d get a subtle piece of jewelry over a huge tacky designer branded watch. Rather than save up and get something of quality, he’d buy the cheapest, flimsiest version of something that wouldn’t last, all because it had some designers name stamped on it. There was that video you showed us, of Shannan, Chris and the kids at myrtle beach, where she brags about going to Cabo next year – yet they were about to be foreclosed on. It very much reminded me of my ex and I felt the same sense of anger and bewilderment rise up within me when I watched that video. It’s very frustrating when you’re busting your behind and your SO isnt contributing at all, and as your money goes to bills and the important things, any dime they earn goes towards unnecessary expenditures like a new pair of designer shoes. Chris went to a physically taxing job with long hours, only to be lambasted if he spent any of his hard earned money on himself, and all the while Shananns at home playing pretend and wasting every dime on more unnecessary junk for her and the kids and not paying the bills. In a situation like that it’s very easy to grow resentful and bitter towards your spouse, you’re trying to save everyone from financial ruin and they’re digging the hole deeper.
One aspect of MLMs that everyone within these groups fail to realize is that of competition. Why, if this business is so great, would your goal be to recruit others into selling the same product as you? You’re creating more competition for yourself. If I own a pizza parlor, I’m not going to go out and tell everyone within a mile radius to go ahead and also open a pizza parlor, subsequently taking away from my business. You don’t make money if the market is over saturated with product and people selling the same exact goods as you are, yet that’s exactly what Shanann and other MLMers do. I also find it interesting that Level doesn’t have a clear and concise income disclosure statement. If this “once in a lifetime opportunity” is as lucrative as they all say it is, why would you hide the amazing salaries these people are supposedly making? Don’t you want everyone to know how great your reps are doing, especially if you’re trying to recruit people? Its pretty obvious why one would want to hide the numbers, especially if it’s a direct contradiction of everything they’ve been trying to sell you on.
Tiny, That was good.
I just remembered, stupid me. I went in on pyramid thingy….bunch of ladies and me, we all put 2500.00 in….darn…guess what…it was a big thing here and cops busting people left right and centre…..we all lost our money. Lesson learnt. Never again.
Hi Sylvester,
1. There were zero (repeat, zero) references to finances in all the gigabytes of communication among CW and SW discovered. So, even if that’s factually true, it might not have been pereceptionally true to CW.
2. Understanding indeed does not mean justifying. But, there’s an optimum to everything. Between the six books that Nick wrote and the pages of articles here on the website, the best has been done with the data available. Most of us understand the vortex of the volcano that was formed as a combination of nutgate, Nicole, Nico and the past..It has reached a point of idempotence. No amount of squeezing the lemon is going to get another drop out, and at some point we would be only reacting to noises (“why .did he say this and not that?”), not signals.
3. There are two categories of “factors”. The stimuli (which are well documented) and Chris’s own character. The latter side includes his immaturity and introvertedness. Being an introvert, he did not express enough distress before he acted. There is usually a buildup to any catastrophe-Air France 447 gave out 52 stall warnings and several speed warnings before it fell from the sky. I am sure Shanann would have acted differently had she known she was choosing between “death” and “house”.
4. There’s a boundary beyond which you cannot explain the imbecile. On the 13th of August, 2018, guess how many unhappy couples were there on planet earth? Possibly a million. How many of them had acute financial issues? Possibly hundreds of thousands. How many of them argued on that night? Possibly thousands. How many of them got physically abusive? Possibly hundreds or a lesser thousand. How many of them murdered their spouses? Maybe very low single digits. How many of them killed the whole family the way CW did? ONE. If we have to spend countless hours explaining his “lack of choices”, thus overstepping into Shanann blaming, we discount all the possible routes that a human brain could have taken at those increasingly aggravating points. Shanann could have raised all the temperature, but the boiling point is the innate property of the element in question. No one else is responsible for that.
Weld county public trustee.
J. P. Morgan Chase.
Watts house on Hold till July 17.2019.
Investigation, Re: 2nd confession.
Apparently 200 more documents to be released end of May.
Jessica Marie Livingston.
03/09/1977 – 08/12/2016.
She was 39, a pencil artist.
Brother Justin Livingston.
Fundraising for her mother Audrey Onorato. Almost 10.00.00 raised.
Hi JC, so the strobe story reminded me that my friends son who def has epilepsy can’t even watch the computer, given Shannans life I think epilepsy can probably be ruled out and I shall resume my DUI pondering, why anyone would make up such an elaborate excuse is beyond me, but of course we Californians tend to not judge much on DUI,s or “medical marijuana” either, maybe she thought her community would be disapproving? I,ve been to NOLA and Texas and I can’t see it there but maybe SC is different and it’s so unladylike to drive under influences 😳 This whole caring sooo much about how people saw her is nuts. I think that’s why all the illnesses too, she couldn’t just be lazy or hate her job etc or blow off college, she had to be a victim. Going to see Us tommorow which is a horror story about meeting your real self, the one underneath the bs perfect fronts some people insist on.
Just a hunch I don’t think her car accident was alcohol related – she didn’t care all that much for alcohol. But according to Chris and what “they” told him the accident was “bad” and “they believed” which implies they don’t know, she blacked out or had a seizure. If Lupus does cause seizures then that would be reason enough to flag a driver’s license such that she would not be able to drive in the future until the Lupus is under control. Didn’t she not know she had Lupus for a while? At any rate I’m also going to venture a hunch that there was not another car involved. Otherwise the other driver would be able to sue I would think, or their insurance company would. Then we could look there – but again, where.
Aberdeen Times does publish a category “accidents and fires” – with pictures and names, but finding an archived newspaper for 2009 is difficult. Moore County does have a statistics archive but no names. I think it could have been Aberdeen as she purchased her 1000 Peninsula Drive home in Belmont Dec. 1, 2009 (if that home page listing is correct) then met Chris shortly thereafter. Still working on it.
Could be. Unless she drank and then the accident changed her in that respect. I was in a serious car accident once, not due to any neglect or substance abuse, but I didn’t want to even be in a car for an extended time, because it felt like a death trap. It can change you, sometimes permanently. I still carry the physical scars.
Hello Nick and Ralph, isn’t it possible that she wasn’t an alcoholic but got a DUI anyway? Don’t lots of people party when they,re that young ( hands up) and you feel pretty bullet proof about it, I mean that’s what your undergrad years are for…oh and pesky degrees yadda yadda. So she would have been what 22? I don’t think it made her horrible, it’s the story about a seizure, these so many illnesses, that I don’t buy. In my past in TC I,ve had the pleasure of meeting some of the most delightful people, Betty Broderick, Susan Atkins and Doc MacDonald, and all of them were so perfect, so put upon, so dismissive of the sad sack losers in their lives, and so elaborate in making people see them as victimized heroes, and Nick, in McCann, Pistorius, the Ramsey’s, Peterson and Knox you must have seen all of this, so that’s the hook because Shannan seems so similar, except of course for the part about being murdered instead of murdering, but for me it’s that she was so un-victim like that makes this case so interesting, if he,d been the one killed it would be another disappointing loser spouse gets killed for insurance or not hanging up the shirts right story, but it’s the opposite so what really went down?
I thought through the DUI possibility, too. If LE suspected or smelled it and she refused a breathalyzer, she would automatically be charged. If she was unconscious and transported to the hospital, they’d order a blood test BAC. Any DUI record is public info, too. I kinda just went full circle and decided texting or selfies while driving might be a likely cause, especially since she had set her phone up to send the “I’m driving and can’t call/text right now” message when she was in the car. The seizure could have been real, or the story she
Btw, EMDR is really effective therapy for accident related trauma, but I know guys tend to poo poo that sort of thing and tough it out. I was hit from behind while sitting still by a drunk guy who was also texting, driving 60mph, in a huge, jacked up Ford F-150, and I saw it coming but nowhere to go, nothing I could do but hold the brake down and hope that it didn’t kill me or the people sitting in the car ahead (with 2 babies in the back seat). Toyota Landcruiser I drove saved my life – they are absolute tanks. Highly recommend.
The lasting effects of really bad car accidents are real. Sorry to hear of your experience…honestly, it sucks but I think I’m more pro-active than reactive in my driving now.
“Just a hunch I don’t think her car accident was alcohol related – she didn’t care all that much for alcohol.”
…except for her thinking “I now choose play dates on the basis of which moms are more likely to drink wine with me” was hilarious and there were those images of cans of fizzy beverage with alcohol in it, sitting right on the table in front of the children.
I suppose an alcohol-related incident while driving could affect the rest of her life, certainly. Or any kind of a car accident. The police wouldn’t speculate however. She would be fined, her license would have been revoked for a period of time, a court date, and jail time and community service. A blackout or a seizure wouldn’t be casually discussed, if it was alcohol-related. Sounds to me like they don’t know what caused the accident. Blackout or seizure. Sounds like something hospital personnel would speculate about, or her family. She’s driving one minute, and in an accident the next,with no memory it sounds like. If she knew she had had one too many not likely her family would have called it a blackout or seizure, nor would they be talking about it at all ergo Frankie’s charge. I’m not resigned that I won’t find anything, if anything not being able to find anything yet just spurs me on.
Excellent!!
I have read a few of your theories and think you victim blame too much.