“Dad, I could not put the girls with her after what she did — I could not put [them] with her” – Chris Watts

Six days after the plea hearing on November 6th, Chris Watts’ parents have spoken out for the first time. I’m surprised they haven’t spoken out sooner. I was also surprised they didn’t make a statement outside court when they were in Greeley. If they were given instructions not to talk to the media, they’ve changed their minds and gone against them now, and they’re right to do so. The right to a fair trial is a basic human right, guaranteed by law and constitution of the United States.

In this case that right does to to be maligned, in the sense that Watts appears to have been manipulated into accepting a plea. It’s also odd that his parents have felt shut out in this process. It’s one thing if the Rzuceks feel a plea suits them, it’s another if Watts parents feel it doesn’t. If it doesn’t they should say so and not stop saying so.

So which schmuck lawyer convinced Watts that pleading guilty was in his own best interest? Even if a jury sentenced him to death [given the circumstances of this case I believe that’s far from certain], it would be a sentence unlikely to be carried out, and one he could appeal against.

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When Denver7 spoke to the Watts family via Skype [by the sounds of it], the reporter asks Ronnie and Cindy, why now?

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Cindy answers, “Because we didn’t know about the plea deal.” Ronnie is looking down when she answers, and doesn’t nod to reinforce that answer. If they truly didn’t know, they should be furious. I believe they did know, but now feel they’ve been misled. It’s okay to say so.

Then Cindy adds: “We were not allowed to talk to him about it.” I’m not sure this is entirely accurate either, because if they visited him in jail, it certainly came up. Probably they didn’t get to discuss the plea deal as openly and completely as they would have liked, or – more likely – they thought they were doing the right thing, and now [a week before the sentencing hearing] they’re having second thoughts. It’s okay to feel that way.

As soon as a defendant feels a particular plea isn’t in his best interest, he’s allowed to rescind it, or to appeal the plea if he does so late in the legal steeplechase.

CINDY: I asked Chris, if you didn’t do this [presumably referring to the murders of the children], do not confess to something you didn’t do. She [referring to Watts’ defense lawyer] she shut me down…she completely shut me down.

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“She” seems to be a reference to Kathryn Herold or Megan Ring.  It’s likely Cindy is accurate on this point. If Watts’ state appointed defense attorneys were pressuring him to take the plea deal, then they wouldn’t want Cindy interfering with that process.

Looking at Ronnie, Cindy recalls her son telling her [them]:

“He said ‘I’m sorry, I lost [interrupts herself…his temper?] I went into a rage [Ronnie mumbles something] and…I killed her.’ And he said, ‘I’m so sorry.’ He said: ‘I’ve ruined your life. I’ve ruined my life.’ “

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It’s interesting watching Ronnie and Cindy together. Cindy takes the initiative. She speaks for the most part while Ronnie takes a back seat. But then when Chris Watts’ father says something, it’s quite a big deal.

RONNIE: Well, he told me, he said ‘Dad, I could not put the girls with her, after what…after what she did.

What did Shan’ann do? Is this a broad reference to her succumbing to the Le-Vel black hole?

RONNIE: He said, ‘I’m not putting her with her [them].’

Ronnie and Cindy both don’t seem surprised by their son’s dislike for Shan’ann. It’s possible they’d known about it for years because Chris Watts had lived it, and they’d also experienced Shan’ann themselves. Beyond the MLM crowds who liked one another on social because there was an incentive in doing so [I scratch your back if you scratch mine], Shan’ann was perhaps an acquired taste.

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When the Denver7 reporter asks Watts’ parents to explain how putting the children in the oil tanks was a gesture of good will, both Ronnie and Cindy are a little caught out. Both answer, speaking over one another, that they still don’t understand that.

His parents are arguing that Watts gave the girls and Shan’ann a different [separate] burial, and seem to be saying through that he showed his disdain for Shan’ann. The oil tanks seems to a more heartless form of burial than a grave in the Earth, so I’m not sure that argument holds. I think it is true that his feelings for Shan’ann differed markedly from his feelings towards his children. I think towards the end Chris Watts really could not stand his wife. Ronnie and Cindy confirming this speaks volumes.

Perhaps responding to the legions on Facebook responding with the knee-jerk catchall [which they apply universally to true crime], Cindy maintains that her son isn’t a psychopath or a sociopath.

When the Denver7 reporter refers to a trigger, he references his own question to Watts during his Sermon on the Porch.

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Watts answered then that they had an emotional conversation but “let’s leave it at that”. Unfortunately the reporter didn’t ask “an emotional conversation about what”? Watts wanted to leave it at that, but if he the reporter had insisted, probably the inference would have been they had an emotional conversation about splitting up.

That’s what the affidavit says.

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When the Denver7 reporter asks Ronnie and Cindy about it, Cindy’s voice rises with emotion:

“He was leaving her.” Ronnie mouthes “leaving her” in the background as well.

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But that’s not the trigger. The separation was a precipitating factor, and as I’ve mentioned in TWO FACE, it was a long time coming. In fact the six weeks Shan’ann spent in North Caroline from the 9th to the 15th week of her pregnancy was either officially or unofficially part of that trial separation.

We also know that during this trip, Shan’ann’s mother told her work colleagues at Hair Jazz in Aberdeen [which is a few miles West of Spring Lake] that her daughter and son in law were having difficulties with their marriage and “definitely” intended separating.

But separating because of what? The trigger isn’t the separation, it’s the thing causing the separation. Was it the affair or affairs Watts was “actively” engaged in? Once again, that’s not a trigger. Being in an affair isn’t what triggers an affair. The trigger may have something to do with Watts’ sexuality, or the constant bummer of the MLM debt spiral Shan’ann was locking them into, or the pregnancy, or a combination of all these factors.

If Chris Watts intended to separate from Shan’ann before April, then the “surprise” pregnancy wasn’t a surprise at all, it was a strategic manoeuvre to lock her man into the marriage. Maybe he went along with it, like the Watts parent went along with the plea deal, then changed their minds after. Maybe Shan’ann agreed to quit the MLM, if he stayed in the marriage, she’d quit with the MLM. But maybe she reneged on that promise, and that was what the trip to Phoenix was all about.

RONNIE: He just wasn’t in love with her any more, he said.

CINDY: If this actually happened like the- like they’re saying…that it did…that he killed them, then what was the trigger? 

RONNIE: If he didn’t kill the children, I want him to face that and let them prove it.There’s a whole lot of unanswered questions about the case. Everything happened too quick there, from a case status thing to a plea. 

CINDY: It did.

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The Denver7 reporter asks Watts’ folks if they think their son was coerced into making the deal.

CINDY: I have no idea. 

RONNIE: The only reason I can think of, he’s tryna…for our family and for her family…for our family and his family not to go through a trial. Long drawn out trial.

CINDY:  It has been so overwhelming. And I feel like I have to do something to-to help my son to…to… I-I just need to do something. If he’s not going to fight, I want to fight for him.

Off camera Denver7 quotes Cindy adding that what his lawyers did wasn’t enough.

“To me, all they wanted to do was save his life, just save his life. Save his life and life in prison to me there’s no difference. He’s going to die in prison. I just want him to fight. I don’t want him to take this plea deal. I want him to plea[d] not guilty to the children.”

Watch the original interview on Denver7 at this link.

24 thoughts on ““Dad, I could not put the girls with her after what she did — I could not put [them] with her” – Chris Watts

  1. I don’t know… I’ve always just had this unwavering sense that there’s something very wrong with this case. Chris might just be telling the truth or the partial truth. A lot of people feel the same way but opinions have been suppressed and I get it in a way because there are so many hysterical people that believe he’s 100% guilty.

    I’m so conflicted at this point but I truly believe that at the very least we aren’t hearing the full story. I also don’t feel he’s gay or bisexual, I feel that he fell out of love with Shan’Ann and right or wrong, he fell for another woman. I also do not believe one iota that this was premeditated.

    If he’s not guilty of murdering the girls then he needs to FIGHT and he needs to renege on that guilty plea deal ASAP.

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    • Anything’s possible, but I just don’t see why he wouldn’t attempt CPR for the girls. Why he would dump their bodies in such a cold, dark place. Him calling his co-worker the night before to say he’d be at the fields in the morning makes me feel like this was premeditated. Her delayed flight didn’t give him as much time to do the work getting rid of car, purse, phone.
      Nor did he expect Shannann’s rockstar friend to come calling at noon determined to find out where she was.

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    • The autopsy revealed he lied! He said shan’aan strangled the girls with her hands. They were suffocated. All you have to do is READ! He murdered her and those babies! All he had to do was leave. Simple!!!!!

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  2. I wonder whether Chris will even be told about this interview. And if the autopsy results show what i suspect they might, his parents will be so devastated.

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  3. It also would have been very interesting if the reporter had asked about their reaction to how Chris seemed during his infamous porch interview. It would have provided some insight, as parents, as to why they thought he acted the way he did.

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  4. The question about “he decided to put them in an oil tank?” caught Mr. Watts off guard, he actually can’t reconcile that, and who could. It’s calculating, shows planning – he would know how he could get them in there, what tools he would need since it was his worksite. Investigators early on believed he put them in oil to disguise the smell – but that sounds a little too pat. A cadaver left in the trunk of one’s car would attract attention, not in an open field. It was an attempt to hide them, and possibly to have the corrosive effects of crude oil break down DNA.

    His parents want to believe he couldn’t kill his own children. It’s not consistent with the picture of Chris they have on their wall and in their minds.

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  5. Pingback: Christopher Watts: What else do we know? [UPDATED] | True Crime Rocket Science / #tcrs

  6. Things aren’t always complicated and deep even though that would be better writing material. Chris Watts doesn’t give an F that the world KNOWS he killed his kids. He just can’t look his parents in the eyes and admit he murdered their toddler grandchildren. It’s obvious and simple. A couple years ago this dude in Milwaukee stabbed his girlfriend and her 4 year old daughter to death just for fun. The first thing he did was told his mother not to watch the news because he didn’t want his mother to know that he stabbed a 4 year old girl in the heart and burned her body. Granted he continued to lie about it even after his initial confession because he was hoping for his freedom. Chris Watts killed them all, wants his freedom but may or may not have given up on it, and will continue to lie to his parents until the day they die just like anyone would if they had murdered their own toddler daughters. Plain and simple.

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  7. I don’t know if it’s so simple: Chris is lying to his parents about not killing the girls. It’s definitely possible, but now I’m sitting on the fence. I don’t think you make up statements about separate burial having to do with interpersonal trauma during life, in this case Chris’s assertion that Shan’ann killed the children, ergo “burying” them separately. I buried my parents separately because of the mutual trauma one perpetrated on the other in life. Having said this, he could have buried the girls together in an earthen grave versus disrespectfully disposing of them in oil tanks. Maybe he ran out of time. I think Nick posed the question earlier: what takes longer—oil tank disposal or digging a grave? I don’t know. What I do know is there’s a lot more than meets the eye with this case—guilty on all counts or not—and It needs to go to trial, especially with the legal skulduggery to date.

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  8. Why does it need to go to trial though? So every last detail can be released for people to write books and make more money off of their deaths? For the general public’s sick fascination and hunger for answers? All the answers and articles in the world will never make killing toddlers “make sense” in peoples hearts so that people can feel better. What does knowing every detail really teach everyone in the long run? It’s not going to prevent another tragedy like this. If this is some guys idea of solving his problems there’s nothing anyone can do to prevent the next guy from killing his toddlers. I thought it was interesting that Frankie wrote that people wont be satisfied until they see pictures of his murdered families dead bodies. It’s true, you want to look at every autopsy photo of dead toddlers, you want to read and re-read every note from the person who performed the autopsy. You will never be satisfied. Even if a camera captured the murders as they happened and you watched it 10,000 times in a row you still wont be satisfied. Humanity as a whole is very very sick and demented and this case has brought that to light. Many people should look within themselves and question their REAL motives. Not just the fake motives they present to the public to justify their BS. But ask yourself honestly why you want to see and know these things.

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    • It needs to go to trial because every man, guilty or innocent, deserves his/her day in court to be tried by a jury of his peers, which aren’t the State, or Anadarko, or LeVel or the Rzuecks—all of whom have images to protect, as well as a keen and unbalanced interest in this very complex case not seeing the light of day. We’re looking at another burial here—individual rights being placed alive six feet under by powerful interests using concern about Shan’ann’s image as their cover.

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  9. I’m not superior at all. Obviously I have a sick fascination as well or I wouldn’t be here. Maybe the questions were more for myself I suppose. Trying to convince myself to stop following this case because in all honestly, someone else will murder their toddlers whenever they damn well please and there’s nothing we can do about it. I do agree that it’d be interesting to see all involved be forced to give answers. The Le-Vel people, the Anadarko people, the mistress. But none of the big interests involved excuse Chris. I have however learned a lot about MLM from reading about this trial, it seems like Le-Vel had to have played a HUGE role in the marital issues. We will find out more next week.

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    • The point of this blog isn’t to claim the moral high ground or dance on anyone’s grave. It’s also not to cheer-lead how good one person is and how evil, psychopathic, monstrous someone else is. We don’t choose sides. The mandate is very simple: figure out what really happened. So we ask questions, play the devil’s advocate, go down the rabbi tholes, examine the media narrative, study the court narrative, test all the information that’s out there. What we find when we do this is very little is as it seems, which is why true crime analysis is vital. Through a single case we learn to know how the world works a little better, and perhaps we learn how to function in it better, and not be taken advantage of by unscrupulous people – including criminals.

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  10. When I saw that his parents finally came forward I couldn’t ignore your article about it because I’ve been waiting for ANYONE who knew him to say anything. It seems to be true what they said, that you can’t find anyone with a bad word to say about him. He didn’t have a criminal background. Were there really no signs at all that something was off with him? Was he really just a normal guy who felt he was backed into a corner and made a decision that murder was best? These are the questions I have that probably wont be answered even if there is a big trial. I mean, how can you not be taken advantage of by unscrupulous people/criminals if you can’t identify that they are one?

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    • I think this is why this case is so haunting and it bothers us all so much. We want Chris to just explain why, tell us his perspective, what is the justification in his mind? That’s not to say we can forgive him or think what he did is acceptable, but the silence is maddening and I think that’s why so many people are trying to figure out the answers themselves. It is scary to see the pictures, the videos, etc., and feel that sense of doom that lingers over them now in retrospect.

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  11. I totally agree Kaye, it’s very eerie and they’re keeping the details from the general public as much as they possibly can. I’m not sure if nickvdl ever mentioned the youtube plunder account on this site but those videos are really hard to watch after awhile. There was a theory going around that they were being leaked by someone on Chris Watts team to make Shanann look bad but I think they were just put out there for people to judge for themselves. Obviously no one deserves to be murdered but those videos really make you cringe at a lot of Shanann’s behavior(as hard as you try not to victim blame you start to think these thoughts). You just want to scream at the screen, STOP! YOU’RE GOING TO GET YOUR KIDS KILLED! Very depressing stuff especially watching all the MLM pushing while the kids are begging for attention and being deprived of it constantly in an effort to sell more BS products. After awhile you begin to feel like the kids were the only victims in the situation, and you have to remind yourself that a PREGNANT WOMAN was murdered here. That was their life on camera… I think everyone wonders what their life off camera was like.

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  12. After reading the comments here so far, I just want to throw this out here…..There was a detectives daughter murdered in a nearby town where I live. When asked for comment on a book that was released about the murder, the detective stated he wasn’t going to comment on someone making money off his daughters murder. Now I see similar comments here. To that, I will say that many, many people make money with every murder! The police, the prosecutors, Medical examiner’s, defense attorneys, print and electronic media, yes, authors, witnesses for the defense, witnesses for the prosecution, Crime Scene Investigators, lab technologists, Crime scene clean up companies……the list is endless! Even that detective made money due to his own daughters murder. Regardless, I’ve been a true crime follower for more years than I care to admit, but I refuse to apologize and I refuse the “sick voyeur” title as well. There are millions of us out here that buy these true crime books and there always will be. Enough said.

    As for today’s developments…I say – BRING IT ON!! Although I firmly believe Chris Watts is guilty of murdering his whole family and that the State of Colorado will prevail, Chris is entitled to due process if he so chooses. If Chris wants a trial, he should get one, but I do have a few questions for anyone who cares to answer. Why would the prosecution force feed a plea deal to Chris? To save the taxpayers money? Is it to put a feather in their cap to say they took a killer off the streets? I’m not sure if their D. A. is elected there or appointed. I don’t have a legal background, so any explanation would be welcome. That being said, I have a few observations pertaining to Ronnie and Cindy Watts’ interview.

    IMO it sounds like Cindy Watts is going with the “Just Snapped” theory, after all, who could blame her? 2nd degree murder/ Just Snapped yields a much lighter prison sentence than 1st degree premeditated murder. Yet many a prosecutors have won 1st degree murder convictions with strangulation murders due to the act taking several minutes to accomplish. I will also add that it was said that there is evidence that Chris had planned the murders. I don’t recall if I heard it on tape or read it in MSM, but I’m 100% certain it was said. I do believe it though. Cindy Watts says her son isn’t a psychopath or a sociopath. I don’t know if that’s true, I’d bet Cindy doesn’t know for sure either, but I do know there are some characteristics of a sociopath that could fit Chris. A sociopath can exhibit a Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde behavior – good guy/bad guy. Could this be why Chris was a seemingly great, caring, loving, involved father who then commences to murder his kids? Sociopaths also blame others for hurting THEM. Chris says he strangled Shan’ann ONLY after witnessing her strangle his kids. In other words – Yes, he killed Shan’ann, but SHE hurt ME, so I hurt her back! Could this be Chris the sociopath blaming Shan’ann for her own murder? FWIW I’ve seen many Chris sympathizers do the same thing.

    The suggestion that Cindy Watts “takes the initiative” and “Ronnie takes a back seat” actually makes perfect sense if true. This could be why Cindy and Shan’ann butted heads, they were cut from the same cloth, so to speak. They were too much alike to get along. After all, there can be only one Queen. Could this be why Chris seemed to go along with whatever Shan’ann wanted? Did Chris follow his father’s example and just take whatever Shan’ann threw at him?

    Ronnie Watts believes Chris took a plea deal to spare his family a long drawn out trial. I think the real truth is that Chris was more afraid of what would be revealed at a trial. Was Chris a closet wife-beater? Was Chris having affairs with other men as well as other women? Is Chris gay or bisexual-sexual? What is Ronnie Watts’ attitude towards gay men?

    What pushed Chris over the edge to commit murder? I see speculation that perhaps Shan’ann trapped Chris into staying in the marriage with a third pregnancy. Sorry, but Chris was there when that “trap” was under construction, he built 50% of it! Don’t want a third child? Don’t have sex. Yes, it’s really that simple.

    While I understand the Watts familys’ desire to speak out for Chris, there’s a difference in what could’ve triggered a murder and justifying a murder. Ronnie and Cindy Watts, and the world for that matter, can speculate all they want as to what could’ve triggered Chris to commit murder, but short of self-defense, there is NO justification for him murdering Shan’ann, nor is there any justification for disposing of his two little girls bodies in crude oil.

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  13. He lied about a lot of things so I am not sure why they don’t seem to consider he is lying to them as well.
    I think he wasn’t coerced into a plea. I think he didn’t want his life on display and without a trial, he can still pretend to be the victim because “poor guy was forced into it and nobody proved anything” 🙄 and his parents are buying that.
    But that’s just my opinion.
    I have seen many cases during my degree of criminals victimizing themselves, one way or another, even if all the proofs says they did it with proofs being obvious like a video of them stabbing someone.
    I will never forget the one where a guy in the US tried to sue the family of the victim he killed because he was now suffering from PTSD, PTSD he gained when he killed their daughter…
    It didn’t go well for him

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  14. Where his Dad says above that he (Chris) was sorry for ruining their lives, and his own. No sorry for taking Shan’ann’s, or their daughters, or their sons. He’s not even sorry they’re gone, let alone that he played a part in it. There’s no way he’s trying to spare Shan’ann’s family from a drawn out trial. Someone’s got leverage on him big time. I’m picking that given the rift with Shan’ann was so strong, his parents would have had very limited access to their grandchildren over the years, so less opportunity to form a bond with them. But still sometimes this makes the longing to see the grandchildren stronger in people; they treasure those moments more. They don’t speak of them now, just a perceived injustice to their son.

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  15. I feel as if Chris Watts simply lied, and I believe he is lying now to his parents. I also think that may be the type of relationship that his parents have with their son. His lying to them and/or manipulating them, and their enabling him and making excuses for his behavior. I think it is sad, yet I suppose understandable, that his parent’s have permanent blinders on, with regards to their son, and what he has done. All logic and evidence may point to the fact that no one else, but their son committed these heinous murders, yet, they are still unable to face it.

    Another thing, since I’ve been reading various articles about this case on multiple websites, news media sites, blogs, etc., and a few points I recall being mentioned:

    1) Within the Charges, the DA has listed that the daughters were either killed on 8/12 or 8/13, which seems insignificant, except when placed next to the fact that the DA has Shannan’s death listed as a definitive 8/13. My point, the DA may believe that Chris Watts ‘planned’ the murders, because the DA believes that Chris Watts killed both of his girls, the day before Shannan returned home, and that they were already dead when Shannan returned. If so, obviously that would throw the ‘Snapped’ theory out of the window. Also, it would reflect an even more callous disregard for the lives of his children and wife.

    2) Somewhere I read that Chris’s Co-Worker Mistress, or another of his Ex-Partners, had a three way with Chris and Shannan, and that Shannan wasn’t really into it, but that she seemed to just go along with the swinger scenerio. My point, is that whether Chris Watts was hetero, bi, whatever, Shannan may have been well aware of his preferences, and either put up with them in order to ensure the continuation of their relationship or used Chris’s preferences as a bargaining chip for later use, as many women have in relationships.

    3) So far as Chris Watts putting the girls in an oil tanker versus an earthly burial, I’m of the opinon that perhaps an earthly burial was the initial plan; however, after attempting to bury Shannan, and spending all of that time digging, but since Shannan was found in a very shallow grave, per Law Enforcement, that Chris Watts learned the hard way, that it takes a LOT of time, and a LOT of physical effort in order to dig a proper several feet deep grave for a body, and even then, unless the thing is 6 foot or more deep, and four foot wide, what you’ll end up with will likely be a very shallow grave, that you probably utterly wasted your time digging, and would have been far better off, eîhad you spent that time coming up with a more effective alternate option than a grave burial. So, I think Chris Watts got exhausted, and frustrated with his progress, and simply gave up on trying to bury Shannan any deeper, and decided that he needed an alternate plan for the girls. Which was when he realized their small sizes would allow him to place them inside the oil tankers, and even if Shannan was found, that he doubted that Law Enforcement would think of or be capable of searching the tankers…Thankfully, he was wrong!…Personally, I don’t buy the b.s. he’s selling to his folks, about Shannan having ‘done’ anything to emotionally traumatize him into wanting to separate her from the girls. Imho, it was all simply his own scheming and laziness, or inability to complete a task that was beyond his physical and mental capabilities at the time.

    4) When it comes to the “Trigger”, I believe it was a combination of things. That Chris had simply fallen out of love with Shannan, and where years ago there may have been Love+Passion, there was now Ambivalence, and possibly even Hate..(the stages that People seeem to travel when moving from, and falling out of Love long-term)…combined with having started a fairly new, exciting, passionate relationship with a new partner, via his coworker, which was drawing his attention, and effort, so he wished to escape his situation, and as has happened many times over in family annihilator cases, He wanted a ‘fresh’ start…

    5) When it comes to my ‘sick facination’ with true crime, well, that’s one person’s opinion, and we all know what they say about those… I’ve been facinated with real life, true crime cases since I was a teen. In my case, my it stems from a desire of wanting to be an champion or advocate for the innocent lives snatched all too soon from existence, by the real evil that walks this earth, whomever the perpetrator(s), and wanting those who were taken all too soon, to have some sort of justice. Not revenge, but justice, at the very least, those lost, having the truth about whomever committed the crime(s) against them, to come to light.

    Anyways, that’s my two cents, so far as this case, and things such as true crrimes go…too late & I’m too tired to think ang further…

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      • I read about #2 when the Mistress Coworker stepped forward and told her story (and/or right after, as a few others also stepped forward after she did)..initially, there was the male who stepped forward claiming he had an affair with Chris..the mistress was still silent at that time…a lot of time passed, people were trying to cyber sleuth her out versus others, she remained silent, then recently she came forward, and she spoke about how she had gone to the police and told them everything, she worked with the police, but if I recall correctly, unlike in S.Peterson’s case, she had already had a falling out with C.Watts so rekindling wouldn’t have been believable, then shortly after a few others came forward speaking of their passed rationships with C.Watts..not sure which of the multiple articles I read that stuff in, but I did read it…many were on oxygen, people, and just showed up in my news feed or found when googling..it was from a main media source and not a blog, I’m now determined to go read all that bunk again to find where I read it, and whom exactly said it..(thought it was the mistress, but doubtful after rereading two articles so I’ll dig in & dig out where & who..

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