GUEST POST: Revisiting Ceecee’s Allergies

Below is a recent reader response, quoted almost verbatim. Thanks [name redacted], I’ll post my own response to this in the comments. It would be useful to have others weigh in on the issues you raise as well.

Re the Watts case, I much was made by Shan’ann of her child’s allergies to tree nuts. On one of her videos, she feeds Ceecee part of a Thrive Lemon Meringue bar – with no ill effects. The ingredients list includes tree nuts.

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Lemon Meringue bars ingredients

https://cdn.le-vel.com/en/Documents/THRV025.pdf 
Ingredients: Thrive Pro Sequential Protein Blend (Whey Protein Isolate, Milk Protein Isolate), Prebiotic Dietary Tapioca Fiber, Maltitol, Vegetable Glycerine, Palm Kernel Oil, Natural Flavors, Whey Protein Concentrate, Palm Fruit Oil, Sunflower Seed Butter, Nonfat Dry Milk, Tapioca Starch, Whole Milk Solids, Soy Lecithin, Sea Salt, Citric Acid, Calcium Carbonate, Sunflower Lecithin, Sucralose, Yogurt Cultures. Allergens: Contains Milk, Soy, Tree Nuts (Coconut). Net Carbs: 26g – 12g sugar alcohols – 11g dietary fiber = 3g Net Carbs 

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This helps confirm one of my thoughts – that the children’s many illnesses were made up by the mother or were induced by her. It was merely another way to get attention and control Chris. (We are all sick; you have to stay with us).

Her attack on his mother about the nuts in the ice cream was the tyrant’s attempt to cut off her victim (Chris) from all outside input. And I think Chris well knew the children’s “allergies” and Shan’ann’s alleged illnesses were fake – just part of a world built on lies – and he had to play along – until he couldn’t. He wanted to be free to create his own world, also built on lies.

I don’t doubt that Shan’ann had pain, but I believe much of it was due to the stress she put herself and her family under. Fibromyalgia, for example, doesn’t show up in tests and is not usually manifested by observable physical symptoms, yet prescription painkillers are used to treat it.

I believe Shan’ann was “on” painkillers and this contributed to her mental decline (obsessions, mania, etc.) The entire “work at home” scheme may have been due to her inability to find a legitimate job – it is reported (not verified that I know of) that she a record of embezzlement and arrests for other minor crimes. Related to this family’s decline and ultimate demise, it would be interesting to know what Chris’s politics were – was he was a fan of Fox News and perhaps right wing radio? If so, he was allowing liars to program him.

Alex Jones , for example, programmed his fans to believe fantastical, nutcase theories such as – Sandy Hook was a hoax. Once an unstable person suspends belief in reality, he can then segue into thinking he can magically dispose of his family, even when simple GPS evidence would lead investigators to the bodies, esp. that of Shan’ann. Even if she was moved later in the day, the dogs would have found her initial grave site. He also disbelieved his own neighbor’s security cam’s ability to show him loading his truck Monday morning. What a goddamn fool. 

The fantasy of the new woman, his likely sex addiction (fueled by “chemicals”) could have fed into his break with reality. Imagine being a closeted gay or bisexual man and meeting someone like Nickole who “confirmed” that he was really hetero, and what he would do to possess her. Also, dead family = insurance money (although without bodies, he would have waited years for the payout – another breakdown in his logic). 

As a “dog person”, I was very moved by your focus on the role of the dogs in the Watts story – little Deeter and the cadaver dogs. 

I am a retired [redacted], living in NW Georgia. Exposing liars is a very worthwhile occupation, and I wish you much success in all your work.

171 thoughts on “GUEST POST: Revisiting Ceecee’s Allergies

  1. ARE YOU SERIOUS HERE? So it’s Shannan’s fault that Chris murdered her and her children? Treenuts aren’t the same as peanuts Mr. Investigator. Also, Shannan’s LUPUS was diagnosed by lab tests, she had been treated for it all her life. You need some mental help!

    Liked by 1 person

    • @lynneR I agree with you! The authors ignorance is offensive… it’s offending me.

      @nickvdl This is an observation sure-but you are in no position to make a diagnosis on anyone. On behalf of Shanann… kiss her ass.

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      • Lynne and Kate, if you read the title and/or the introduction, you’d know this article was written by a reader and posted as a guest blog by our host for discussion. He never claimed to agree or disagree with any of it but felt it had enough supportable speculation for considered debate.

        Liked by 2 people

      • “On behalf of Shan’ann kiss her ass” “I offended”

        First off I could say many things here but I’ll be respectful, something you apparently can’t manage to do even though this isn’t your site and you have no say in what gets written here. If you’re offended however, there is an “x” at the top right of your browser you can click. That’ll stop you from being offended.

        If you want a meaningless discussion where all people do is talk up Shan’ann and don’t actually continue anything of value, then you should go back to Facebook where people with similar thoughts as you congregate. If you want a valid discussion where people try to find out the motive and missing pieces of this senseless crime, then you can stay but I’d suggest you open your kid and keep your preformed uneducated opinions to yourself. You may not like what Nick has to say however you can respectfully disagree and state why or just silently disagree and move on, your tactless comments just make you look ignorant. This is a place where we take all info available to us and form educated hypotheses, not the social media echo chamber you’d like it to be. If you’re incapable of abstract thought, perhaps read up on the facts of the case and refresh yourself on them instead of pretending like you are aware of what happened.

        If it wasn’t for places like this or people like Nick and the other valuable contributors here, then most crimes would never be analyzed and we’d never learn the motivations behind them. Without intelligent discussion, we’d never be able to stop things like this from happening in the future as we would be blind to the precursors of such events.

        Nobody is going to apologize here for not echoing the mindless rhetoric you’re used to reading. If you’re waiting for that, you wouldn’t hold your breath.

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    • You are incorrect, Lynne R. There is no proof Shannan was diagnosed with Lupus. Or anything else. Lupus (sun triggers it but Shannan worshiped the sun), gluten intolerance, fibromyalgia, infertility, diabetes, migraines, vertigo, a need for a colonoscopy at age 26…… all things which can be faked by a malingerer.

      Shannan fed both girls PEANUTS as evidenced by her videos. There also is a Shanann video where someone asked if it had tree nuts and she didn’t know, meanwhile shoving this processed crap into her children’s faces.

      IMHO, the tree nut allergy wasn’t a big issue until the kids went to Cindy Watt’s place. Oh she used that to cut off the Watts (and their razor blades) but not Frankie Rzucek, who had pistachios in his bedroom.

      Tree nut allergies do frequently appear on routine allergy scratch tests on toddlers. But do they result in anaphylactic death shock? Rarely. I do believe CeCe tested positive for tree nut allergies, and Shannan just ran with it, exaggerating the consequences and using the allergy for her own manipulation.

      I truly believe Shannan had factitious disorder, and factitious disorder by proxy. Girl was a seasoned liar about medical issues. She did start nursing school, after-all. And drop out.

      C’mon – you really believe Chris had CANCER of the genitals at age 26? C’mon. That’s just attention-seeking BS.

      Liked by 4 people

    • Um, she was only diagnosed with Lupus right around the time she was splitting up with her first husband… So NO, she wasn’t being treated for it her whole life… lol

      And did you not read the discovery from the babysitter where Bella told her that if Cece had coconut, she’d never see her again? (or something along that line)? What 4 year old would come up with something like that? Her mother told her this, no doubt.

      Your whole post here is off. Perhaps go read thru the 2 discovery dumps and catch up!

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      • No one who would actually know (aka a medical professional) can say to ANYONE that she had lupus due to hippa. So I guess if you don’t want to take her family, friends, and even CW’s word that she had lupus, that’s on you.

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    • If you read the discovery docs you would know that cece’s alleged allergy was a tree nut allergy, not peanut, so I’m not sure what the point was that you were attempting to make. Facts are facts. Fact #I) Coconut is a tree nut. Fact #2) the lemon meringue thrive bar contains tree nuts (coconut). Fact #3) Cece consumed a lemon meringue thrive bar with tree nuts (as seen on video) and she did not suffer any adverse reactions. Based on this information, I have come to the reasonable conclusion that Cece did not have a severe tree nut allergy. The 2nd point you attempted to make was that Shanann’s lupus diagnosis was based on a lab test. That is incorrect.there is no test that can diagnose lupus. It is diagnosed based off of symptoms, which is why it is often misdiagnosed. Lastly, I don’t see how, by stating these facts, it means that Chris has an excuse for killing his family. You’re way out in left field with that one. You’re just spouting out nonsense. I hate to be the one to say it, but maybe your level of intelligence is not up to par for this site.

      Liked by 1 person

      • Well written response, I very much like how you structured it with facts that can actually be verified instead of common misconceptions. I wish the few people that come here with closed minds and plugged ears would be so critical, instead of believing what they read by other misinformed people on social media. I’m not sure when Facebook groups became verified sources, but some of the women above seem to think that those two different things are one in the same.

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      • My nephew is deathly allergic to cashews, almonds, pecans, and walnuts which are all tree nuts but can safely consume coconut. People with allergies routinely have skin test which show which allergens they react to and a lot of people that are allergic to tree nuts are not allergic to coconuts which are in the tree nut category so there’s that.

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    • It looks like we have someone who doesn’t know how to or simply won’t engage in a rational, intelligent discussion. What we want here are cool heads, and intelligent discussion.

      Liked by 6 people

    • She was also allergic to dogs, yet they had one, and in quite a few of her vids, there was more than one dog around her. Your point?? Maybe she did have allergies, but they were not as severe as this nut made them out to be….

      Liked by 3 people

  2. i will comment in all lower case… but it was my understanding the child had a tree nut allergy not a peanut allergy although i am well aware of the document dump’s reference to a peanut allergy. even some doctors get this confused. there were many things in the doc dump that don’t add up but this woman and her babies are dead now and its my opinion they were each killed by a nut.

    Liked by 1 person

  3. I see the ingredients on the Thrive bar list coconut as the source of the “tree nut” inclusion. Just read up on it, and it’s complicated, but people allergic to tree nuts evidently do not react necessarily to coconut, i.e., it’s not a “tree nut” that people with that specific allergy would react to. Hope I’m explaining that clearly enough. While the FDA classifies coconut as a tree nut, it is not, botanically speaking, a member of the tree nut family. So, its unclear whether CeCe could safely eat coconut. I think a doctor verified her allergies, though.

    Liked by 3 people

    • The Saturday, August 11 babysitter said little Bella said she was afraid that if Cece ate coconuts, she (Cece) would be gone and that she (Bella) wouldn’t see her sister again. (paraphrased here) Bella didn’t get this information from the wind. The Thrive lemon meringue package lists tree nuts as an ingredient under ‘ALLERGENS…at the minimum, Shanann should not have fed these bars to her children.

      Liked by 1 person

    • Finally someone who has some understanding of food allergies. Botanically coconut is a fruit and this is the reason Cece could eat it! EllTee awesome answer explaining, I hope people can try to understand and maybe educate themselves on food allergies!

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    • Thanks for explaining that. My nephew is deathly allergic to cashews, almonds, pecans, and walnuts which are all tree nuts but can safely consume coconut.

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    • Yes, she did. It shows what a huge impression the response had on the children themselves. Bella was worried she might wake up and Ceecee might not. That fear turned out to be quite prescient. One wonders what it felt like for Watts to hear it while Shan’ann was away.

      Liked by 3 people

  4. I have several comments on the anonymous editorial that I’ll reserve for now, but it did prompt a question in my mind. I saw where Shan’ann posted a photo of CeCe in a hospital emergency room. The caption Shan’ann wrote stated it was CeCe’s second trip to the ER due to the nut allergy. I’m wondering if it’s possible that Shan’ann fed CeCe the lemon meringue bar BEFORE she realized CeCe was allergic? Or perhaps Shan’ann didn’t take that diagnosis seriously enough. I’m not discounting anything, but Shan’ann had a doctor prescribed epi-pen, and not that expense would stop Shan’ann, but those aren’t cheap. Just a thought.

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    • Thanks Diana.

      Would be good if you could post links to those photos here. How to do that – you put your cursor over the date of the Facebook post, right click then copy the Facebook URL and post it here. Personally I don’t think this particular bar was an allergy risk, but given how concerned Shan’ann was it seems to be a huge risk given the number of ingredients in these products.

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      • Some people believe the BS fed to them by their MLM upline. For instance, I’ve seen a few women reamed out by HR at work because they were diffusing strong scents in their pyramid scheme oil burgers and diffusers. Even though it’s against company policy as many people are allergic to certain things diffused (like lavender, citrus etc) and others have a reaction around strong scents, these women had to be written up multiple times and some even fired because of their sheet ignorance, brainwashing, and refusing to listen. They would rebut with “Oh, they can’t be allergic to this lavender, it’s 100% pure therapeutic grade and all natural. No chemicals, so they can’t be allergic to something all natural.” I’ve seen this many times in people with an “MLM mindset” so to speak. They don’t realize that 1) “Pure therapeutic grade ” is a nonsensical term made up by their MLM company to sell cheap oil at high prices 2) Everything is a chemical, right down to the water we drink 3) Natural has no bearing on whether someone is allergic or not, arsenic is all natural but take too much of it and even a person without an allergy to it will surely die.

        I’ve seen more instances of “huns” spouting off idiotic dribble like this than I care to admit. They’re told to not fact check because websites online have some sort of vendetta against the company; Whether it be “they want you to believe their lies because big Pharma wants you to stay sick” or other cult rhetoric their upline comes up with. Perhaps Shan’ann believed that because Pro Bars were made by Thrive, and therefore were made with “sequential protein” (nonsensical MLM term) that they wouldn’t harm the kids. She seemed to believe everything her upline told her, even though time and time again they were shown to be wrong. That’s yet another reason why she continued down the path to financial ruin even though she was losing money not making it; Her upline would tell her she’s so close to becoming a millionaire, she just needs to keep buying the product. Shan’ann refused to see she wasn’t a rep for this company, she was their customer and she couldn’t bring herself to realize all this was a scam. Her life revolved around it after all, so if it was all a shill, then she’d have to admit to herself she was being played like a fiddle all along.

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  5. Wow…this article of yours is just bizarre. Bless your heart. You could have saved yourself a lot of typing if you’d just gone with, “I haven’t got a clue how all this nut /peanut allergy works”. Some people would rather have a lie to believe in than a fact they don’t. Please refrain from making unfounded diagnosis about a murdered woman who cannot defend herself.

    Liked by 1 person

  6. Provocative post, intriguing ideas.

    My own intuition (and not only my own) is that Shannan was quite possibly Munchausen/Munchausen by Proxy. It certainly would segue with her obvious mania and magical thinking, as well as her desire for control. I can’t really go into much detail here, but a family member engaged in similar with her own health as well as her daughter’s. Anyone can see true cases of this syndrome on YouTube wherein doctors are fooled for a very long time.

    I would agree that Chris also had a break with reality, and the poster’s theory about what NK symbolized for him is a good one.

    Thank you, Nick, for sharing their thoughts with us.

    Liked by 4 people

    • Now that there have been a few comments it might be a good time to weigh in with my thoughts. First of all, thanks to the reader who sent in this comment. Despite the knee-jerk response from some, it is food for thought [pun intended].

      What we see here are two polar opposites: One group sees an allergy [and part and parcel with that an entirely justified response from the mom], while the other group sees something else [hypocrisy, a misdiagnosis, an unclear diagnosis and a potential overreaction from the mother].

      To be honest, I don’t feel like I gravitate to either group. The whole allergy thing is very murky and muddy. It seems the children were sensitive and allergic in general, and did spend time [both of them] receiving treatments in hospital. They seemed to both be asthma sufferers, and despite what some say, the children seemed to be more sickly than the average children. That’s not what I say, but what Watts said. And if one wants to argue the point, well Shan’ann made everyone aware of her children’s ailments, from her in-laws to her brother [who had pistachios in her room while she visited].

      The Discovery Documents seem to think there was a serious nut allergy [to peanuts], while Shan’ann herself seemed more concerned about tree nuts. It could be the one, it could be the other, it could be both, it could be neither [it probably isn’t neither].

      Now it may be normal for some people to rush to the defense of their close family members by blocking other family members on Facebook, and maybe it is normal. Maybe it is right to do so. Maybe Shan’ann was right to do so.

      The bottomline appears to be [to me] that Shan’ann and the children ended up dead. So whatever we may say about the allergies [real or not], or Shan’ann’s response to Cindy Watts [justified or not], Shan’ann and the children ended up dead. One part of the explanation [not the justification, but the motive] could be that Watts didn’t agree with Shan’ann’s response to the nut thing. He didn’t agree with something. Maybe the nuts fed into that, maybe it didn’t.

      Naturally, the nut thing isn’t the entire explanation for what fed into Watts’ mind when he did what he did. Probably his mistress and money had far more to do with his decision-making than anything else. But the nut thing isn’t irrelevant either. It’s not completely irrelevant. At a minimum it illustrates a dynamic where Shan’ann can confront and attempt to control those around her [including family]. It may have – and in my view probably did – rub some people the wrong way.

      That’s no reason to commit murder, but it was part of the background noise within days of the murders. Bella herself was talking about Ceecee dying while she was asleep. The nut thing was very real in her little mind when McKenna babysat her. And that’s what’s important – that in the minds of the people involved, the nut confrontation did matter.

      My personal opinion is that Shan’ann wasn’t as angry about the nuts per se as she was about Cindy’s response to her reaction. If the nut thing was so bad, Shan’ann would also have written off her brother, and would have removed items [like peanut butter, and perhaps certain Thrive products] from her home. She didn’t.

      What she didn’t like to hear from Cindy was that Ceecee “needed to learn a lesson” from what had happened. This is what upset Shan’ann above all. And I think the real question [one that requires sound minds, and careful thinking] is why this would trigger pain, anger, dismay, disgruntlement and disgust in Shan’ann. Why would Shan’ann’s mother-in-law telling her that her daughter needed to learn a lesson, upset her so much?

      Whatever the answer is, it’s not an easy answer. Her mother might know. Perhaps someone should ask her.

      Liked by 4 people

      • “But the nut thing isn’t irrelevant either. It’s not completely irrelevant. At a minimum it illustrates a dynamic where Shan’ann can confront and attempt to control those around her [including family].”

        If anything it revealed clearly to Chris what her behavior would be like in the upcoming custody battle. I believe he felt she would alienate the children from him and his family.

        Liked by 4 people

      • My impression of how Shan’ann internalized Cindy’s comment about it teaching CeCe (or CeeCee? Which is correct?) a lesson is that Shan’ann was viewing it (by choice or design…that’s another question) as Cindy suggesting she would be willing to put Cece’s life in danger to “teach her a lesson.”

        Of course, that sounds ridiculous that a grandmother would suggest such a thing even subliminally, but that’s what Shan’ann seemed to be arguing when she went on to suggest that her kids were treated less favorably than Chris’ sister’s children…the other grandkids.

        So, in Chris’ mind, did he begin to think maybe his parents felt his kids were expendable? Were they expendable? Did they have so many health problems that maybe death would be a humane thing for them? Was he trying to convince himself that killing his daughters was in everyone’s best interest? (Not my questions – I wonder if he was asking himself these things.)

        He might have believed he was saving them from a future of health calamities. Maybe he thought he could provide his parents with healthy, strapping grandkids with a partner like the healthy lifestyle loving Nichol. Medical costs, emotional toll, and physical exertion would all be less. He was very image conscious.

        Did having a sickly wife and having sickly children diminish his image in some way? Was he beginning to think it was diminishing his image in the eyes of others? His parents, maybe? If he was to believe Shan’ann that his mother thought CeCe was expendable by teaching her a lesson…

        Not my conclusive summation, but stuff I wonder about and thought I’d share in “food for thought.”

        Liked by 3 people

      • My understanding, a doc will not prescribe an EpiPen without a positive scratch test, and then the test has to be 4+ positive (scale 1+ to 4+). For Cindy to know CeCe had an EpiPen for nuts, yet serve ice cream to all the kids and not have nut-free for CeCe. Come on guys. Room full of kids eating ice cream and a 3 year old is suppose to watch and “learn a lesson” … that was plain mean and spiteful. Why shouldn’t Shan’Ann be hurt and angry. Poor CeCe.

        Liked by 1 person

        • Karen, we still only have Shanann’s side of the story, as told by her to a Facebook group, her Thrive friends, and Sandra Rzucek. We do not know if what Shanann described was the reality.

          But can you kindly tell me where you got “a roomful of kids eating ice cream?” The stories differ so much. Thanks.

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        • “My understanding, a doc will not prescribe an EpiPen without a positive scratch test, and then the test has to be 4+ positive (scale 1+ to 4+).”

          I am a middle-aged adult, but I’ve had a sensitivity to insect venom since childhood. While my reaction to honeybees includes severe localized swelling, it has never crossed over into anaphylaxis. However, it is understood in the medical community that this could happen the next time. So I was prescribed an epipen on the basis of my verbally communicated medical history – I have not had a scratch test for allergens since I was in my early teens.

          Since Shan’Ann worked in a medical facility for some time period, *and* all the epipens she had were expired, couldn’t she have retrieved them from the trash and pocketed them? If she never intended to *use* them and simply needed them as props… Were the girls’ names actually printed onto the epipens along with an Rx number?

          I’ve been wondering this for some time…

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      • Nick – just to be clear – we don’t know if Cindy Watts said anything about CeCe, or Shanann, needing to “learn a lesson.” Shanann accused a lot of people of things which just seem too bizarre to have really happened.

        It’s stunning is how much people believe what Shanann told them about various infractions. She sure spent a lot of time spilling these “infractions” to various audiences. She was always the victim!

        I sincerely appreciate your blog, your observations, other poster’s thoughts, and me being able to post my thoughts.

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    • Totally agree, CBH.

      What bothers me so much is that Sandi Rzucek is a smoker. Yet those kids, with all of their allergies, asthma, bad ears, bad adenoids, Periodic Fever Syndrome, Familial Mediterranean Fever Syndrome, tiny esophagus (CeCe) had no problem with Sandi’s smoking.

      Liked by 1 person

      • That is troubling. The nuts became an issue because they were Watts nuts. It was a power play.

        I noticed in one video also that CeCe , for all her many serious medical problems, was given lots of marshmallows and fruit loops before bed. In this era children who have a myriad of medical issues are generally given snacks that are less sugary, dyed, and additive laden.

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      • Interesting, how Sandi smokes.
        I think we can all come to a conclusion that Shanann made up stories about health issues and lied to many about different aspects of her life.
        She was an attention seeker, in- secure within herself. The focus has to be her, and only her. It shows up in all her Videos, her texts. Not once did I ever see an asthma inhaler for the kids. No actual epi pen either.
        I wonder after all her Thrivers, the ones who can read and watch all her Videos and comments. Think about her now.

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      • Marcie –
        Frankie said he goes out to have a cigarette, so it’s just as likely Sandi did too.
        They have great weather in North Carolina.

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        • Im sure those kids breathed in smoke.
          In one video, last week’s, Shanann was forcing the kids to play in the rain. Sandi standing inside house at door talking to Shanann. Sandi sounds like she’s drunk. She sounds like a man.
          Smoke is in the house, I’m sure when kids not there, they smoke inside!

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          • Shannon –
            Wow, this is long.
            In reference to Sandi smoking by you saying,
            “Im sure those kids breathed in smoke.”, and
            “Smoke is in the house, I’m sure when kids not there, they smoke inside!”, is your guess, unless you know it as a fact.
            Nick doesn’t like that kind of supposition here.
            Stick to facts that are known.
            It is known that Frankie said he goes outside to smoke.
            Sandi’s voice has nothing to do with any of this.

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            • Either your naive or stupid.
              I’ve been on this site a long time.
              I’m one of the regulars. If you notice 80% of my posts get liked.
              I’ve notice people comment to your posts. I think you need to Educate yourself alittle more on this case. Which has been recommended to you.
              Ta ta for now.

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              • Shannon – re smoking in Shan’ann’s parents’ home.
                I too have been here.
                I am voicing fact regarding smoking in the Rcuzek home. Frankie went out to smoke.
                Why would he do that, if his Mom smoked inside?
                You are espousing, “I’m sure” assumptions.
                That does not cut it here.

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                • Given the emphasis on wellness and thriving vs the shadow of sickness lingering in the background, the fact that Sandi and Frankie are smokers is interesting. Ronnie Watts seemed to have a drinking problem according to the Discovery Documents. At one point we looked quite deeply into the possibility that Shan’ann may have had several drinks before her return home on August 13th. Does Frank smoke, I wonder?

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                • Prove it where Frankie says he smokes. Are you an expert on their smoking habits.

                  Since Aug 2018 – Feb 2019. Not one post, comment says Frankie smokes. There are hundreds of comments.
                  My comment said when the kids not visiting their grandparents, Frankie and Sandi smokes in that house!
                  Remember Frankie was charged with a misdemeanor, and also said Shanann made 500.000.00 a year. Proving he’s an abuser and s liar. So if this is who you believe….good for you.
                  Hey, it doesn’t cut it here.

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            • Even when people “go outside to smoke”, particulate matter still collects on their skin, clothes, hair, and breath. If you’ve ever been friends with a smoker, you know this. Even if they were smoking outside, they were still bringing in harmful material into the closed environment inside the home – which those supposedly vulnerable girls were being exposed to all the time. With every hug.

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        • Pam – Let’s just imagine Sandra never smoked inside her house and car even when the kids were not visiting. Let’s just imagine that their house/car had no residual irritating smoke chemicals.

          But, even if Sandra routinely smoked only outside, she still had residue on her clothing/hair when she came in from her break and hugged the kids. Plus, the kids were probably around her as she sat outside and smoked. Perhaps even during the rain shower video.

          For such sensitive children who had respiratory and ENT issues, one would think the second-hand and third-hand smoke would be an issue. But it wasn’t.

          My guess is that it wasn’t because: 1) the kids did not have all of the health maladies asserted by Shanann; 2) Shanann could not control her mother’s and brother’s smoking and really didn’t want to, since Shanann liked and needed her family.

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  7. Good post.
    What I took from this is not * if* coconuts are detrimental to CeCe’s health, but instead, about Shanann’s belief that they were. Be it true belief or wanting the public to believe.

    I’ve thought Shanann seemed to fit the ENFJ personality type, and the overarching theme to this guest post further makes me believe she is/was.

    Liked by 2 people

    • For reference – here’s a little on ENFJ types

      ENFJs are natural-born leaders, full of passion and charisma. Forming around two percent of the population, they are oftentimes our politicians, our coaches and our teachers, reaching out and inspiring others to achieve and to do good in the world. With a natural confidence that begets influence, ENFJs take a great deal of pride and joy in guiding others to work together to improve themselves and their community.

      These two paragraphs are tragically ironic:

      ENFJs are natural-born leaders, full of passion and charisma. Forming around two percent of the population, they are oftentimes our politicians, our coaches and our teachers, reaching out and inspiring others to achieve and to do good in the world. With a natural confidence that begets influence, ENFJs take a great deal of pride and joy in guiding others to work together to improve themselves and their community.

      Like

  8. It could be that Sha’nann’s violent reaction to Cindy Watts (and her daughter) exposing CeCe to nuts and comment that CeCe should learn that she can’t have everything she wants and learn to say no called into question Sha’nann’s parenting skills, and Sha’nann thought Cindy was telling her she wasn’t a good mother. But to me both women were alike. Arrogant and self centered. We often don’t to see ourselves mirrored in someone else. That’s often why opposites attract (although I could say they don’t last).

    Didn’t Sandra Rzucek, who was a nurse, say CeCe was born with an esophagus that was too small? But also that they both had asthma. There were old psychological theories long ago that asthma manifested itself in children who had overbearing mothers. In a way it’s like being suffocated by your parent – your can’t catch a breath, or be allowed any freedoms. Tests showed that children who manifested the symptoms of asthma had domineering mothers. Of course then we go back to Freud who said the mother was the cause of every problem in a child’s early life (and Alfred Hitchcock developed many movie themes about “the mother.”). Hitchcock was known to be an avid Freudian.

    Let’s not forget Jeremy Lindstom’s remarks after Sha’nann and the girls went missing that he could understand it if Sha’nann really did run off with the girls, and he didn’t think Chris had anything to do with it – initially. He also said when Sha’nann was at his house if a commercial came on the television for one ailment or another Sha’nann would claim she had it. He didn’t believe it.

    So it’s possible she put her propensity to be sick onto her daughters – funny that she didn’t with Chris – I suppose he was to be the audience.

    Liked by 1 person

  9. My gut and viewing many of the videos, as well as other sources, tell me that Shan’ann was not mentally/emotionally stable and in need of treatment. It’s as if she hermetically sealed herself in a domestic fantasy at Saratoga Trail and could only tolerate enablers, because anyone with a modicum of reality posed a threat to her fragile version of it. And, guess what, Cindy Watts was not and never was an enabler, because she was wary of Shan’ann from the beginning. There were others who sensed something might be wrong with Shan’ann as well, including Jeremy, Chris’s former workmate. In an interview with law enforcement, Jeremy noted, unsolicited, that Shan’ann seemed to claim every illness she saw on TV, along with the children. I find this observation interesting since Jeremy was a casual acquaintance of the Watts and saw them only a few times annually. Not a lot of exposure is it—yet this man picked up on this pattern that others have since observed via the videos and other sources. Combined with her OCD, overspending, and bullying/insistence on control, something was not right with Shan’ann. And I have few doubts that “not right” contributed to the final tragedy. That being said, I’m tired on my own behalf and others’ of having to defend the inevitable victim-blaming accusations, which are intended to silence any reasonable and robust discussion of this case. Ironically, it’s the same type of intolerance and histrionics that Shan’ann exhibited during the nut incident.

    Liked by 5 people

    • Amazing so many if us can read the same reports and watch the same videos and come up with diametrically opposing views: Shanann was a disturbed, overly materialistic, abusive, hypochondriac OR she was a great mom who bears no responsibility for the situation her family was in prior to the murders. Note there is a difference between saying she bore some responsibility for the mess the family was in and suggesting she was responsible for the killings. No one deserves what she and the girls endured.

      I come here and also watch the YouTube videos to try to understand how this terrible thing happened. These family killings seem to take everyone by surprise, but perhaps with more facts about the dynamics of these families, some of them could be prevented. When these three souls left the earth, they left a world of hurt that resonates, even with those of us who never knew them.

      Liked by 3 people

      • Agreed . what i find appalling from those in the Saint Shanann camp, is an immediate rush to judgment. Anyone making even the slightest criticism of Shanann is ignorant, or cruel, or worst of all, a stupid hick. Even this comment that NvdL used to start this discussion, had rather judgmental comments about FOX viewers, which reveal a rather ugly bias. It is entirely possible to view the pathologies of the Watts household, without being a mindless idiot. And FOX viewers, given the state of main stream media in general, are no more biased that MSNBC viewers, who swallow MSNBC’s neoliberal classism.

        What i find to be most reasonable is to consider each fact on its own and not as revelatory bias that can be used to dismiss anything one might say subsequently.

        Liked by 2 people

    • Great post.

      “That being said, I’m tired on my own behalf and others’ of having to defend the inevitable victim-blaming accusations, which are intended to silence any reasonable and robust discussion of this case. Ironically, it’s the same type of intolerance and histrionics that Shan’ann exhibited during the nut incident.”
      Well stated.

      Liked by 1 person

      • I was also taken aback to hear the Fox news slur and that Alex Jones is “right wing”. Biased much? Not one Conservative I know ever listens to Alex Jones and we view Fox news as useful only in that it brings important topics ignored by the left wing media (ABC, NBC, CNN, NPR, MSNBC) to peoples attention. The poster’s career info was also redacted. As far as I know, Watts was pretty anti-gun and didn’t spend a lot of time watching the news on TV. Whether he listened to the radio while driving isn’t known.

        Liked by 2 people

    • Very well put. I noticed the same things you do early on with this case, and she reminds me very much of someone I knew. Quite often people will use illnesses for attention. Perhaps when she was sick and met Chris, he treated her differently. In her mind maybe she thought that if she was sick again, she would receive his undying attention. I’ve noticed in the past that the women that tend to use illness for personal gain or attention feel inadequate in some way and this is the only way people notice them. I recall one of Shananns teachers saying that in school she was quite introverted, lonely, and didn’t have many friends (hardly any). Shanann never stood out from the crowd in any meaningful way. She was attractive, but she had a forgettable face, she was smart but she went straight A’s, she didn’t excel at music or sports etc.. So maybe when she got sick she noticed people treated her differently/better and she grew to love that feeling. Who doesn’t like being adored?

      I also recall her mentioning in one of her many videos that people thought she wasn’t sick because she didn’t look sick. She even had a “Freudian slip” saying “Friends and family didn’t think I was sick because I looked fine on the outside, but what they didn’t know was that I was okay on the inside”. She then quickly catches herself and says “I mean I wasn’t okay on the inside.” Then you have all the comments from Jeremy and others that new her, Nicole Atkinson saying Shanann had diabetes when that wasn’t true, and two of the biggest red flags – The fibro (that subsequently can’t be proven my tests) and Shanann bragging about going off her lupus meds because “Thrive” was so great. Not once did I see Shanann or her friends mention what type of lupus she had. Was it systemic? I seriously doubt it because she had no issues dealing with the triggers of systemic lupus and that kind is deadly serious. My friend has the less serious kind while her mother was diagnosed years ago with systemic, and neither would ever go off their meds in favor of some non regulated dietary supplements that aren’t intended to treat or cure any diseases. If she w every diagnosed, I would bet she doctor shopped until one caved and gave in to her demands. Was this the reason she moved over 20 times in under two short years? That’s not at all unheard of for malingerers or those afflicted with facticious disorder.

      There’s just too many things that don’t add up when speaking about her and the children’s disorders. As far as victim blaming goes, people that say that are the ones incapable of opening up their mind and trying to figure out the missing pieces. It seems they’re quite content with the B.S. “he just snapped” answer, which isn’t an answer at all. If people think that way, fine, but perhaps this isn’t the place for them and they’d be happier in their Facebook echo-chambers.

      Liked by 5 people

      • Only now I found the time to go over the videos and the relevant materials available on the Watts case. Although I find there is something fishy about the health issues, I don’t think it is fair to bash/abuse her because of her career(Thrive promoting). We can’t discard the fact many ppl in her life has said that she has Lupus( I feel she deserves the benefit of the doubt here). In regards with Jeremy I don’t think his interview/opinion is fair as stated by him both worked sales and its competitive and also his wife said they both have the same personality, I feel there is a jealous note coming from him somewhere. We can also not discard the opinion of some of her friends who are Thrive members just bcoz they belong to that cult so to say. May be she genuinely believed that Thrive thing really helped her, one of CW colleagues told in the interview that Thrive actually helped his wife with acid reflux. We really don’t know what actually goes on in others life.

        Cindy is not a fair person not matter what scenario you take, you can’t be that callous when there is a chance of endangering your grandchild.. I don’t get the teaching lesson thing.its too bizzare.. they are petty people. The other important thing is who in the world doesn’t put a bit of false narrative in the social media maybe I don’t know need to back off bit on the bashing of SW

        Full Disclaimer: I don’t know how Thrive thing works ..both from business perspective and health

        Liked by 1 person

    • Cheryl wrote

      “There were others who sensed something might be wrong with Shan’ann as well, including Jeremy, Chris’s former workmate. In an interview with law enforcement, Jeremy noted, unsolicited, that Shan’ann seemed to claim every illness she saw on TV, along with the children.”

      If true, Jeremy’s statement that Shanann’s claims that she and/or her children were suffering from illnesses she saw on tv is stunning.

      We only have Shanann’s word on results of medical tests. And we don’t know how reliable her word was. Until someone can access the medical records and question the medical staff who saw this mother and children, we only have what we see in those videos as real evidence, and possibly not even then. But it seems that these medical issues played a large part in the deaths of Shanann and her children.

      Liked by 3 people

    • Because of Shanann, I bet everyone in that house was very stressed.
      I felt sorry for the girls. Bella was over protective of Cece, because they really had only each other. It would have been very interesting to see that family dynamic when the girls may have been older.

      Liked by 2 people

      • “I bet” is a guess.
        What merit does your “bet” have?

        “they really had only each other”.
        Hello? I’ve seen videos of Shan’ann baking with the girls.

        Like

    • Totally agree Cheryl Filar. Excellent post!

      I have to wonder WHAT ELSE occurred in the past where Shanann whacked out at some alleged infraction by Chris, Cindy, or Ronnie Watts? Surely there must’ve been some, as they said they thought Shanann was “bipolar.”

      Like

  10. I do think though that Cindy and Sha’nann were alot alike – even though I’ve never had the pleasure – but that Chris picked a certain “type” and likely Nichole Kessinger would have fit his type too. I was a little harsh on Sha’nann there, calling her arrogant and self-centered. I wanted to say narcissistic but you know, labels. Chris was not close to his mother. He wanted to get as far away from home as he could, and Sha’nann did too. However I think some of the same traits Sha’nann showed when she shut Leonard King out by being over the top involved in work (coming home late, or not at all) she repeated with Chris. Then throwing herself into Le-Vel to the exclusion of all else, and shoved Chris out of her life even though they shared a roof. But of course we’re at an advantage here, getting to peek into their marriage and watch their videos. If we could dissect so carefully our own relationships or look in on our own marriages or those of our friends I don’t think we would like what we see there either.

    Liked by 2 people

    • If Shan’ann stayed home all day and didn’t work, you’d all criticize her for that.
      She worked, she raised happy kids, tried hard to please her husband, kept a clean home, cooked and baked, shopped, kept her nails nice, never had an eyebrow hair astray, took the kids to see their grandparents when school was out, I could go on and on. She tried and succeeded.
      I wish to be more like her. Though she may have ‘said’ she was OCD, and Nickole ‘said’ it too, she did not mean it in the true sense of OCD. Those people wash their hands a hundred times a day, keep going back inside to see that they didn’t leave the stove on, etc.
      She meant that she was particular, a thing goes in its place type of thing, finish what you start type of thing.
      Shan’ann can’t win in a room with critics like you people.
      I can’t wait for the next murder victim blog, where the woman sat at home and ate bon-bons, and see what you say about her.

      Like

  11. These comments reminded me an old episode of American Justice, “A Mother’s Betrayal”. The mother of a little girl fooled the medical community for years into believing the child had life threatening illnesses, symptoms of which were either falsely reported by Mom or induced by her. This can and has been done and is sometimes diagnosed as Munchausens by proxy. . Once the girl was removed from the home, she wasn’t sick again with these symptoms. The mother was charged and convicted.

    Liked by 5 people

  12. Nick I will try to find the photo and attempt to post per your instructions – thanks!
    Cheryl I agree with you that some people are ultra sensitive to victim blaming due to the discussion on how Shan’ann’s behaviors may have contributed in setting her up to be a victim. I think the regulars here understand that NOTHING Shan’ann did was justification for Chris snuffing out her life, we’re just looking at the motivations for why these murders occurred! If those who don’t understand what we’re doing here hang around long enough, maybe they’ll “get it” and contribute in a thought provoking way. On the opposite end of the spectrum I notice there are some who DO believe Shan’ann alone caused her own murder, and that’s not true either. Cheryl you pointed out some interesting observations about Shan’ann and Cindy Watts that never crossed my mind, lots to think about. I do think Shan’ann and Cindy Watts were cut from the same cloth, thats why they didn’t get along.

    Liked by 1 person

    • I totally disagree with you. It takes two to tango.
      Shanann created an atmosphere, that was tolerated for while. But when Chris had time alone, to see who he really was, the outside world, realize not all woman are like shanann. Then he starts snooping around her office finding Bills, where she had lied to him….oh honey we’ll be ok.
      The financial mess was her doing, like the bankruptcy. Oh my, we about to go full circle…again.
      This time, no bankruptcy in the picture. Renting is now in the picture. After him working,paying into his home, their home. Nothing, no more home.
      Finances disastrous, her going on and on about Nuts, her lying about Bills, her lying, freaking out, the kids sick, god knows behind closed doors.
      Do you honestly think, she couldn’t have caused their deaths?
      Come on.
      You kill for a reason, you don’t wipe out the whole family for the thrill of it.
      If Chris had been smarter and shut up, we’d be watching a Trial.

      Liked by 3 people

      • Agreed. People will take the smallest thing from Chris’s past, something that happened ten years ago and amplify it for no reason. “One time he did this, so he’s a terrible person”. Look, nobody here is debating that what that man did was a horrendous thing. We all know that. We’re trying to find the missing pieces, the motive, the “why” and “why now? What was the straw that broke the camel’s back? Was there even one or was it the result of little things simmering that eventually came to a boil?”

        What irks me is that some people in the camp that was referenced by the above poster (Shannon) is that they don’t apply this thinking uniformly. Example: “NK is a horrible person who was an adulterer.” Yet when you say “Well, what about Shan’ann then? She was said to have desecrated her first marriage by stepping out on her husband? Is she horrible too?” the same camp of people will respond by calling you a victim shamer because it’s an easy cop out. That’s not how things work, you can’t cherry pick what you want and make opinion into facts, and I see alot of that. You can’t point out tiny things in Chris’s past and say “See? He’s a horrible person because when he was 20 be did this and that…” but then disregard the things in Shan’anns past that were shady and that she was still doing up until the day she died. People will bring up the MLM thing and say that their horrible and ruin lives by scamming money from people, but then say that Shan’ann wasn’t like *those* MLM people, she was a victim. Shan’ann was on her fifth or sixth pyramid MLMs in 8 years, none made her money, and if you ever saw those videos then you know they were made with the intention of selling the product and recruiting people. She wasn’t “like an MLM hun”, she WAS an MLM hun and she was lying to people saying she was making all this money because her intention was to get them to buy and sign up. She knew she was making nothing, knowing that other desperate people like her would sign up hoping for financial freedom, only to end up in debt and broke like she was but she lied to get recruits anyway. She needed to make money after all, so lying to others was okay. Point this out though, and those same people well attack you.

        Its crazy to see some of the mental gymnastics these people go through when defending her. You can’t say Chris was bad for doing “x”, but then ignore that Shan’ann was doing the same thing. It’s gotta be uniform across the board. Nobody is saying she deserved it, but for some reason to imply that she was anything less than perfect just makes a certain few go crazy with insults. It doesn’t make sense and it’s not helpful to anybody in this case, they don’t seem to realize that.

        Liked by 2 people

  13. I have been following this case, and this site, from the beginning. I have often wanted to comment, but I’ve been trying to pull myself away from this case, but since I can’t seem to, I might as well delve in, right?
    So here goes… First, this case resonates with me on a very personal level. I am a stay at home mom of two with health challenges, who often worries she is putting too much responsibility and strain on her husband. I didn’t have these health issues when we married. Because of my health bills we lost our home to foreclosure and had to file bankruptcy. I know the strain finances and health challenges can put on a marriage. Our children both have food allergies. (Shan’ann was in my parents of children with nut allergies group on Facebook.) I have been diagnosed with OCD (I will comment on the OCD post later). And the part the gets me the most, is that my youngest could be CeCe’s twin. Right down to the spunky attitude! I’ve never been drawn into a case like this one before.
    I’m hoping to add to the discussion in hopes of finding answers to the many unanswered questions.
    Okay, so as far as allergies are concerned coconut is considered by the FDA as a tree nut, although it is technically not. Allergist will tell you the same thing. When you go in for allergy testing you can get a blood test or a skin prick test. The blood test is not as accurate (there are a lot more false positives) so even if you have the blood work done an allergist will have you do a skin prick test as well. There can still be false positives but they are less common. The skin prick test will test seperatey each tree nut (pistachio, almond, cashew.. etc) peanuts are not a tree nut but they along with coconut are often tested along with them. I can give more clarity to what happens in allergist appointment if needed. But bottom line is most kids are not allergic to all tree nuts but they are told to avoid them all because of cross contamination risks. There are some tree nut allergies that tend to go together. For instance, if you are allergic to pistachios there is a higher chance you will be allergic to cashews.
    But in the allergy community parents whose child is allergic to one tree nut (say cashews) will avoid all other nuts as well. It’s easier to tell people your child can’t have nuts than to explain they can have cashews but nothing else. And most nut products are made in facilities with other nut products, so cross contamination is a huge concern.
    As I mentioned before, Shan’ann was in my parents of kids with nut allergies group on Facebook. I believe the allergies were legit. And kids who have asthma are at a greater risk of anaphylaxis. The moms on there encourage you to be strong advocates for your kids. They absolutely encourage you to cut people out of your lives, including family members, who don’t take your kid’s allergies seriously. The moms on there are pretty hard core. I don’t agree with their harshness, but I am in the slim minority there. Most of the moms on there would have reacted the same way, or made an even bigger deal, than Shan’ann did about the ice cream. The group seems to encourage moms to take that strong mama bear approach. From my experience, her response to the situation was perfectly in line with what the typical allergy community supports. Its too heavy handed in my opinion, however, I do understand the frustration they have in getting people to take allergies seriously. Yes, some people have ruined things by claiming their food intolerance is an allergy. True allergies can be life threatening.
    CeCe had an EpiPen. You don’t get that prescription unless you have a documented, proven, food allergy.
    And yes, they are super expensive, however there are special coupon cards you can get that make them free. Most people with insurance pay a small copay for the meds and/or use the card to get them free.
    If anyone has specific questions I would be happy to answer them. Both my kids have food allergies. Only one child has nut allergies though – peanut, and some tree nuts (although we say all tree nuts for school, again for simplicity and to avoid cross contamination).

    Liked by 7 people

    • Gave my two cents worth on another page but thought I’d chime in once again. In all likelihood her children would have outgown their allergies. They also would have carved their own destiny and grown more independent as adolescence began it’s rocky stage. I believe Sha’nann was being the best mother she knew how to be, based on what she had. And by had, I mean what we are given by our own parents and their history, and on down to what they were given and what their grandparents were given. My father’s mother died when he was 3. His father re-married a “wicked witch” according to my dad and his siblings. My dad would run away from home every chance he got. When a police officer would bring him home his dad would beat him. When his dad died the step mother put him in an orphanage where he grew up. The girls got married at age 15 and ran off in their own way.

      But this isn’t a sad tale entirely. For my dad had a mentor after he got out of the orphanage and into a school. He was encouraged to study and work hard and realize his dreams, which were to work in a foreign country. He put himself through college often going without food so that he could pay tuition. He kept his dream up on a wall in front of him in his dormitory room. He met my mother while in college and they married and went off to Washington D.C. where he interned at the library of congress. He got his master’s degree and realized his dream and became a foreign dignitary and vice council of the US Embassy. Now, did he have problems with women? You bet. He always picked very strong dominate women – and conversely pursued very glamorous unattainable women on the side. He had an idealized picture of love and romance. He ended up divorced three times. But you can look back and see the triumphs and tragedies that cursed his whole life.

      My point is we are given our histories by those who raised us. We can break free of them but there is always some fabric left us by those who had us and the kind of environment we come from. Chris Watts took all of the information that he was given and chose a very bad response to it when he no longer wanted what he had – and wanted something else – which probably would have been the same thing he had. Because although we have triumphs and tragedies in our lives at any given day, how we respond to them is totally, and completely, up to us.

      Liked by 2 people

    • I too had a skin prick test. Supposedly I was allergic to many things, including Nuts. I came out of the office…..stunned. I was in my early 30s. I avoided everything the doc told me I was allergic to. Then I would eat something from some restaurant and find out after the fact. I just ate something I shouldn’t. Waited 15 mins, ……guess what I didn’t die…..lol.
      So I was around all that I shouldn’t be….nothing. I have for awhile been eating everything.
      So, you can’t always believe these scratch tests.

      Like

  14. This post brought up a question I never really pondered. His politics. His possible susceptibility to believing the hype of outrageous things (the poster used an example of the “sandy hook was fake” theory). I’m not sure any of this truly matters in terms of the motivation for the murders, but it would certainly add to a personality profile of Watts. In my opinion, any little tidbit about WHO he was as a man is worth knowing. Because “on paper,” so far, he seems like the kind of man LEAST likely to commit murder (especially of his or any children). There’s still something missing. Something relevant inside him that helped his volcano to erupt (literally, as he googled pics of erupting volcanos in the early evening on Aug 12, 2018). He had to be either extremely mad at shannan or disgusted with her. The mistress existence was a force multiplier, but there had to be a growing disgust of his wife, independent of NK. What could that be? Or maybe I am making this too complicated. Grrrr.

    Liked by 2 people

    • Good points to think about.

      These discussions are worthwhile because they provide added dimension to a disturbing story.

      One thing that could have (but should not have) caused Chris Watts to turn on his family was that he was ill equipped to deal with two very active, often bad tempered children. The prospect if another child in this mix could have been the tipping point.

      I think the kids’ behaviors were the result of tensions in the home and the pressures put on them to perform on the vids, which they obviously hated.

      Liked by 2 people

      • I recall hearing in NK’s recording, she said that Chris was “upset” because the kids were now telling him to shut up, something Shan’Ann often said to Chris. Again, this is per NK.

        Liked by 1 person

    • This reminded me of something i’ve never seen addressed. I wondered if CW was a good dad who loved those girls, or simply went thru the motions. I could never tell. When the girls were younger, i thought they reveled in their dad’s love and attention. The video where CW and Cece sing the steelers song and then she hugs him, was totally heart-warming. Shortly before this tragedy (Cece appeared to be three years old), SW posted a video of Cece sitting on Chris’ lap and snuggling in for a shoulder rub, which SW disapproved of. Not clear why. It was such a sweet thing and she stopped CW from rubbing Cece’s shoulders. Till Cece insisted.

      I wonder if CW felt he was not allowed to be more than the practical attendant rather than the loving Dad. That SW insisted on being the parent, and turned him into their worker bee, their facilitator.

      Liked by 2 people

      • Shanann was jealous of how the girls loved their dad and vice versa. She wanted all the attention on her. I believe Chris did love the girls. But his Hatered of Shanann sealed their fate. If he thought he was going to jail for just Shanann, whose going to get the girls. This way in his mind there together. Lots of parents kill kids, one parent. This way no one gets them.

        Liked by 2 people

    • You’re making it too complicated.
      Envision Nichol saying something during sex about an ‘explosion’.
      Envision the threesome he was about to partake in.
      Think like that. Chris’ mind was sports and work and sex, not politics, as far as I’ve ever seen or read.

      Like

      • SORRY, EVERYONE.
        I MUST LEARN TO START WITH THE PERSON’S NAME THAT I’M REPLYING TO.
        My comment beginning with “You’re making it too complicated” was meant for Aaren at 3:15 AM.
        Future replies pop in between previous replies and the original post.
        Threads get long, it’s difficult to follow without me putting the person’s name first.
        I will do better with that, from now on. {{Sheepish.}}

        Liked by 1 person

  15. I’m an MD and this nut allergy\illness question keeps pinging in the back of my mind when I read about this case. Baby pictures of oldest child Bella seem to show a normally developing child in robust health. The younger child, Celeste is approximately 1.5 years younger. Celeste was apparently born with an underdeveloped esophagus which required several surgeries. People who develop MBP often experience a REAL medical issue which is where they first become aware of\become addicted to the attention and sympathy that a parent of an ill child receives. As the girls become older, they appear to develop ill health in several areas which is shared quite openly on social media (including pictures in the hospital with masks on, lists of medications etc). As Bella in particular grows older she becomes more sickly looking as well as appearing quite anxious in her facial expressions and behavior. Of course, I did not treat them and have not examined their medical records so my information is admittedly limited and my opinion is highly speculative However, I cannot help that niggling thought in the back of my mind – could it be that Bella was a healthy child until her sister was born with a REAL medical problem at which time she also became “sick”? Remember that for many pediatric illnesses that are in the vague side – the parent is the primary historian and is rarely not believed when they present with a child and a history of coughing/breathing problems etc. Maybe I am naturally suspicious (as well as coming from a family of psychiatrists) but if these children were my patients, I would be reading Bella’s early medical history as well as digging deeper for any actual medical tests that would confirm these illnesses. I believe there is a lot more unsaid than said in this case and there seems to be a disturbing undercurrent in this family’s interactions which were very public. What if one player cannot turn a blind eye anymore? What if he cannot go ahead with adding another child to the illness drama? What if that player wants off the stage altogether? Just something to think about in this complex case.

    Liked by 7 people

    • I totally agree! The photos of Shan’ann and Chris with surgical masks with Bella in the hospital are disturbing to me because Shan’ann is grinning widely under the mask. When my children are sick, I am not a happy camper–it’s sickening. She seemed to enjoy exploiting her children to make herself look like “SuperMom”–and some of the photos of Bella just break my heart–pale, thin, dark circles under her eyes and just lethargic and timid.

      Liked by 3 people

      • Yes! Those pictures are particularly disturbing to me. In my experience, when children are hospitalized, their parents don’t take pictures or even like to have a lot of visitors to their child’s room. I have seen visitors kicked out of the paediatric wing when they tried to take pictures of a sick child – parents in general seem to consider pictures of their ill child to be invasive and distasteful. The only time I have seen this is when a special visitor/character visits the paediatric ward or if a chronically ill child celebrates a birthday in hospital Even then parents prefer pictures to be limited. Understandably, most do not want to document a sad, stressful and difficult time in their child’s life.

        Liked by 5 people

    • Yes Bella did look sicker as she gets older. She started to look like a boy. Who posts in a hospital when kids are sick. Most people wouldn’t even think of that.
      Mentally she was suffering inside. Her emtionals.
      In videos, Shanann was quite mean to her.
      Kids go to bed heartbroken, they think.
      There are alot of little ones that go their room heartbroken.

      Liked by 1 person

    • I just see the ending of this differently. He did turn another blind eye, and he did go ahead and add another child to the illness drama, and he didn’t want off the stage. He just wanted his wife and children off the stage.

      Like

    • Yet when Chris was interviewed, he described how Shan’ann had a cycle tracker app, which they used to get pregnant, they withheld sex for a couple of days, tried, waited another couple of days, tried again, based on her ovulation.
      Chris took part in that.
      Chris held back each couple of days, then took part, held back, took part.
      Chris wanted that baby, he hoped for a BOY.
      Nichol is the problem.

      Like

      • Pam, in your reply to me, that I couldn’t reply to,, lol,, I was confused, just saw in your comment,, something about explosions, threesomes and political,,, haha

        Liked by 2 people

      • Pam please educate yourself on what it is we do here. If you think Nicole is the problem and he suddenly snapped after a short extramarital affair, then it appears you know why he did what he did and no further interpretation by you is required. If you’d like to explore the family dynamic and actually look at all the interpersonal relationships in this case in order to a figure out why Chris did what he did (and other missing pieces) then I suggest you read all entries here at CR.

        Liked by 1 person

    • Hi KerryA, I’m a little late in replying, but I totally agree with you about Bella. The later photos and other postings show a very thin, pale, unsmiling little girl, not at all happy. Even more shy and withdrawn than before. It’s very sad, particularly now that we know what ultimately happened to her. Although she doesn’t really talk much in many of them, she seemed to be a little slow in developing her speech, although she appeared to be bright. Not sure if any of this has anything to do with anything, but I also wonder if CeCe’s health problems played a part in that. CeCe was also a stronger personality who seemed to unconsciously draw more attention, and she seemed to be very bonded with Chris.

      Liked by 1 person

  16. The ice cream nut incident was extremely important to Chris Watts–he said that he finally saw Shan’ann for what she was (whatever he meant by that) and he took his parents’ side on the issue. I think this really affected Shan’ann–she was going full throttle at his parents on Facebook and she was instructing him to do the same and confront his parents. It backfired spectacularly. He was cold, detached and done with Shan’ann when he was in NC. Maybe for the first time in their relationship, he was acting on his own and defying Shan’ann.

    Liked by 3 people

    • Actually, that was the much needed excuse to justify and carry on his (CW) secret affair. Covert narcissists are cowards. They are obsessed with image because image is both fantasy and impression managed ideal false self. • lies are how they uphold that fantasy. The narcissist lives a life constructed on so many lies that the very lies become their truth. The narcissist depends on others ignorance. They are obsessed with appearances, reputation and status. They only care about how they ‘look’ to other people, truth doesn’t matter at all, only that which appears to be the true.

      Coverts are never content because they lack object permanence and never develop “human value permanence.” They only value you based on this moment, right now. They view people as objects. A narcissist’s only criteria for valuing another human being is whether or not this person is currently feeding my narcissistic needs. They’re driven by selfishness and immaturity. Pretends to be benevolent in order to blend in.

      Like

      • Your descriptions also describe Shan’ann exactly! Her perpetual selfie world of lies is evidence of this. Look at me!! Look at my house!! Look at my kids!! Meanwhile, her dysfunctional marriage was a farce, she was spending waaaaay more than she was making selling vitamin patches and the pyramid scheme she was drowning in was going to eventually be impossible to keep running as her downline all dropped out, they were losing their home and they were so behind on mortgage payments Shan’ann raided CW’s 401K for $10K to try to postpone the inevitable foreclosure. She was living in a fantasy world–her morning videos that Nicole Atkinson told the detective she did EVERY. SINGLE. MORNING. of herself putting on her makeup speaks to narcissism. She was abusive to CW in her 24/7 Thrive videos “My husband does anything I tell him to do” etc., and she only started treating him with affection after she realized her marriage was hanging by a thread once she got to NC. Running up all the credit cards and going completely broke just 3 years after a bankruptcy is not the behavior of a responsible parent or wife. I’m really tired of the only explanation for the horrible murders CW committed being solely “covert narcissism” because it’s intellectually lazy. There were a ton of situational pressure points that all converged and both Shan’ann and Chris had personality disorders and malignancies that contributed to this tragedy. JMO.

        Liked by 4 people

      • lauralovesandrew – spot on. This described her to a T.

        Lets also not forget the texts where she admitted she treated him badly and was going to try and ease up. Too little too late at that point. She was so self absorbed she didn’t see what her behaviors were doing to her family, and heaven forbid anyone speak up against her, they’d face the Wrath of Shanann… even her own family by the sounds of it. Seems her comments about her italian temper hold a lot of water. It is unfortunate that nobody spoke out earlier about her behavior, things may have ended very differently.

        Liked by 4 people

      • Was she actually Italian? I know she wanted to be and claimed she was but nobody in her family looks to be Italian, and her maiden name sure wasn’t. Her parents never mention it. I know she named the kids Italian names but the only person in her family that had a somewhat Italian first name was her brother. Rzucek certainly isn’t Italian, and she didn’t look Italian. Was this real or another thing she embellished as part of her made up life?

        Liked by 1 person

    • Actually, i was always struck by her narcissism in those text messages to CW, in which she says “how did you fall out of love with me in 5 weeks?” Well Shanann, you just publicly attacked and shamed his PARENTS, with no acknowledgement that you over-reacted or were thoughtlesly and cruelly, a self-centered drama queen? I’d say that, together with the over-spending, hoarding, hypochondria, bullshit multi-level marketing scheme, would indicate this pimple was about to pop. How could anyone lack even the slightest self-awareness and humility?

      Liked by 4 people

    • There is confusion about Shanann’s possible arrests or charges of embezzlement. Some posters write that it was someone named Shannon Watts who did these things. “Shan’ann” was formerly Shannon or Shannan Watts — she changed her name. Her mother pronounces it Shannon.

      Liked by 1 person

    • She was named as a co defendent in an embezzlement scheme. She was also stealing money and screwing the owner of Shady……car place. Forget rest of name.
      Also some guy helped her out financially with that house, that she sold super fast and left 95% of the furnishings.
      Need more.

      Liked by 2 people

  17. I would like to chime in here as a regular reader, but first time commenter. I have an epi-pen level allergy to TREE NUTS (almonds, hazelnuts, pecans, etc). A COCONUT is actually a fruit, NOT a nut. A tree nut allergy and a coconut allergy are entirely separate. Many, many food labels incorrectly state that they contain tree nuts, when they actually only contain coconut. It’s very likely Shanann knew this and that’s why she fed her daughter the bar.

    Liked by 1 person

      • CeCe’s allergist would have provided Shan’ann with a detailed list of her specific allergens. Since she was going to preschool they also would have required her to have two EpiPen Jrs at school, as well as an allergy action plan (which would have listed her allergens, the medications she takes, and what to do in certain situations). For example: what to do if known allergen is injested and there is a reaction, what to do if known allergen is injested and there isn’t an immediate reaction, what to do if allergen is suspected to have been eaten and there is a reaction.
        Some allergist want you to Epi if a known allergen is eaten regardless of symptoms or not. Others advise Benadryl and wait to see if other symptoms appear. Point being, if CeCe was prescribed an EpiPen Jr, Shan’ann would have known exactly what her allergies were.
        What I suspect is that she told the girls CeCe was allergic to nuts. And Bella, upon hearing the word, cocoNUT, assumes it was something CeCe was allergic to.
        There was mention before about the girls eating peanut butter. I can’t find the reference to CeCe eating peanut butter, can someone provide a link? In the Thrive Bite video it mentions Bella likes the chocolate chip and the peanut butter ones. But no mention of CeCe. Can someone clarify please if CeCe ate peanut butter please. I’ve been researching and find conflicting information about it.

        Like

    • If Shanann knew this, why was Bella telling the babysitter that Cece couldn’t have coconut otherwise she’d never see her again? It seems even if she knew it, she was playing it and putting it into the kids heads, which is SO very wrong.

      Liked by 3 people

  18. To the poster who said Bella seemed to become more sickly with age…..I did notice a huge difference in Bella when looking at her photos and videos! I’ll say what I’ve said here before. Like everyone else, I was looking at the huge array of photos of the family right after the murders. I soon realized Bella looked so different from an infant to about 2 years old compared to most of her more recent photos, but I couldn’t quite figure out why. Then it hit me! If you look at her earlier photos Bella smiled a lot more! She looks like a different child as she ages, just very pensive. Now I don’t know if the difference is illness? Listening to her parents fighting? The constant invasive camera/video recorder? Mimicking a mom who didn’t feel well? Fighting off
    an ever rambunctious sister? Was she picking up on the stress of financial strains? The difference in her photos over the years is startling!

    Liked by 5 people

  19. I agree with the guest.

    Shanann’s mother, in her discovery statement, says that it took two years and seeing many doctors to finally have the girls correctly diagnosed with “asthma”. (And it was diagnosed by a PA, at that, not an MD.) How difficult is it – if a person actually HAS asthma – for a doctor to figure that out? Multiple doctors missed a very common childhood condition? Pediatricians screen for it, for heavens sake. It indicates to me that Shanann was insistent on her kids having certain diagnoses, despite multiple doctors thinking otherwise.

    Very telling.

    Also, having a dog in the house with children who suffer from respiratory illnesses so severe they need CPAPs is not recommended.

    Liked by 3 people

      • Yes, there were photos of them side by sides with CPAP hoses on. But just once, as I recall. There were plenty of other pics of them in their beds and first thing in the AM, with no CPAP anywhere. Maybe it proved to be too difficult to deal with, or unappealing on the endless videos to sell her perfect life….. So that the CPAP requirement was quickly resolved. Yet another reason to suspect factitious disorder. SOME ilnesses are ok to take on, others that create a negative impression turn out not to be issues after all.

        Liked by 1 person

    • Yes really. Any Norman Doctor would pick up on asthma. That’s a lie.
      Funny never saw any inhalers and for kids that active, they would have needed them.
      The more I read, the more I get sick. Shanann was a nightmare. I don’t understand how NO ONE spoke up to her.

      Maybe that’s why Chris’s mother took ….no shit from her. Good for her. Shanann needed to be put in her place and because Cindy stood up her, she didn’t like it. Sometimes when you see someone being mean, vindictive….you might just want to get under there skin!
      Have you heard the mother speak in her Videos. She sounds drunk

      Liked by 3 people

    • I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again, everything she did right down to moving multiple times screams “doctor shopping” to me. It’s very common for them to over use and abuse walk in clinics and ERs and when they get flagged, they move only to repeat it. It seems she did this prior to meeting Chris, and then doctor shopped for a doctor she could bulldoze into giving the kids the diagnoses her and her uneducated mother decided the children had.

      Liked by 1 person

      • I disagree, I think moving multiple times would be for extreme obvious cases of Munchausen’s/Munchausen’s by Proxy. Most doctor shopping is for pharmaceuticals. The type of people that get multiple unnecessary and invasive surgeries repeatedly. I don’t see it here. I see hypochondriasis or a milder form of a fictitious or somataform illness here. JMO-we won’t be getting their medical records.

        Like

  20. Now I can’t stop thinking about the very obvious changes in little Bella. She just looked anxious and sad. She looked malnourished. You can see a very big difference in her.

    Liked by 1 person

  21. Nurse here – Those girls definitely did NOT have C-PAPs! Those photos with them wearing masks were them receiving breathing treatments, likely Albuterol for asthma or they had severe congestion which wouldn’t be unusual for asthma and/or bad colds. C-PAPs are for sleep apnea (cessitation of breathing while asleep). Additionally, a C-PAP is ONLY worn in bed while sleeping overnight. Also, newer type C-PAPs are different looking now. Not as bulky.

    Like

    • Does anyone have a link to the pic in question? My husband and I both use CPAPs for sleep apnea and my youngest has a nebulizer. There is a similar mask/hose look to someone not familiar with both devices. But if I could see the pic I could tell the difference.
      It would only make sense for perhaps CeCe to have one if she was indeed born with some type of esophagus issue. But I haven’t seen any pictures of CeCe (or Bella) wearing one. And if it was prescribed they would need to wear it also at nap time.

      Like

  22. There appears to be some confusion still about coconut. The FDA labels coconut as a tree nut, but it is actually a fruit. Most people with nut allergies can safety eat coconut. Please go to the Food Allergy Research and Education (FARE) website, foodallergy(dot)com for more information. Or read this article.
    1American Academy of Allergy, Asthma and Immunology (ACAAI), Tree Nut Allergy, http://www.acaai.org/allergist/allergies/Types/food-allergies/types/Pages/tree-nut-allergy.aspx

    Like

  23. Also , could someone please link where CeCe ate the Lemon bar? I can’t find it. There is the video where the Birthday Cake and Cinnamon Roll bars come in. Bella and CeCe both try the Birthday Cake flavor. CeCe reaches for the Cinnamon one to take a bite but Chris hands it back to Shan’ann. Later in the background you can see CeCe holding a bar, but it looks like it’s the Birthday Cake flavor.
    There is also a video of the girls in the car eating the Birthday Cake flavor as a snack.
    I remember there being a video of Shan’ann throwing a LuLaRoe? Party at her house. She served samples there but I don’t remember the flavors. And I thought only Bella was there. But I can’t find the video anymore to confirm.
    Can someone please point me to the proof CeCe ate the lemon bar please 🙂

    Like

  24. So there seems to be 2 schools of thought thing going on here. If any criticism or issue is lodged in Shan’ann Watts’ direction, it is victim blaming [and she deserved to be murdered]. On the other hand, Chris Watts is an evil psychopathic monster, and that’s really all there is to it. If that’s all there is to it, that’s all there is to it. That’s it. Then that’s it.

    To those who are flying the “victim blaming” flag, I wrote this especially for you:

    https://crimerocket.com/2018/12/10/two-pollyannas-is-about-victim-blaming/

    For some people, there is more to this case and this crime than just two dimensions of good and evil.

    Like

    • I agree with you Nickvdl about this crime being multidimensional. Something just isn’t right. It doesn’t seem like it’s as simple as Chris snapped and now his family are gone. It truly bothers me that people are shaming Shan’ann but I also don’t feel it was ‘all Chris and only Chris’ and what I mean by that is not to blame Shan’ann but that there was something or someone else involved and other facets that aren’t being revealed.

      Like

      • How true crime works is that you look at everything and everyone dispassionately. Maybe you develop feelings of anger, or affection, or fondness, or repulsion along the way – but you never allow those feelings to come in the way of investigating everything that you possibly can. And you never take the attitude of…well, if I ask this question, what if the answer doesn’t reflect well on this person, so maybe – out of respect – I shouldn’t ask it. Imagine if criminal law worked like that? So often in fact court cases are completely skewed in the favor of the defendant because – for example – autopsy photos aren’t shown. Many will say it is the ultimate disrespect to see photos of the deceased, but actually it’s the ultimate reality check. I’ve unfortunately seen several autopsy photos and they haunt me to this day. They make me angry to this day. That is where and how the victim ended up, and most people never ever see that. Who is going to speak for them? And how do you speak for anyone when you selectively leave out the bits that you think aren’t “positive”?

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  25. Just remembered something else. Shan’ann sent Chris, from NC, a picture of CeeCee’s swollen ankle/foot and commented “she may need special shoes.” Special shoes? That’s a bit extreme isn’t it? I take it we’re talking about orthopedic shoes, and they are indeed, expensive. I don’t know that Shan’ann wasn’t always trying to get Chris’s attention by playing to his sympathies with multiple accidents and illnesses, symptoms and surgeries. I’m not coming down on her – I just see it as one of the ways she used to cope – but also to manipulate, and it’s very difficult living with someone who does that. Just when the person is trying to get away, you yank them back by playing on their sympathies.

    Liked by 2 people

    • Hi Sylvester! I agree.. and as far as the child’s swollen ankle,, she could have just tried soaking it.. just what mom’s do.. why jump to special shoes? Another bill to add to the pile…

      Liked by 1 person

      • Thank you for pointing that out. There were a TON of mistakes throughout the document dump due to human error. You would think they would have reviewed it for inaccuracies prior to releasing it to the public.

        Like

      • Hello again Marie! Not only the expense but a tactic – to keep Chris where he is supposed to be – with them through all of their struggles, no matter when, or what.

        Liked by 2 people

    • Could she have been bitten by a spider, bee, hornet. What caused the swollen ankle.
      Both my daughters had the Good shoes for the first two years. Doctor told me they need Good shoes to strengthen the ankles and walk properly. There were no problems with them before during or after. The shoes were 100.00 for each. But with feet growing a few pairs for both.

      Like

  26. Sae and all the others who know about coconuts:
    Wow, is the FDA ever behind the times.
    They should be challenged immediately on that topic, because it’s really bad for the FDA to be wrong.
    If I were one involved, I might start a petition, and get the FDA cracking.
    Phoning isn’t good, because you have no record that you spoke to someone.
    If you did speak to someone, to them, it’s only one phone call.
    A petition leaves that precious paper trail.

    Like

  27. That’s not at all what that means. My ex had a prescription for an epipen. He had a mild reaction to a cat one where he got hives. He was also a malingerer and often thought he had every ailment known to man. Like Shan’ann he would make multiple unnecessary trips to the ER and told every doctor he saw that he was allergic to multiple things. They’d kill him, he claimed, even though the most severe reaction he ever obtained was a few small hives on his leg. They wrote him a script for two epipens and discharged him. It’s not like hospital is paying for it, and often it’s easier than keeping the malingerer in the room taking up doctors time.

    Largely, ER doctors will go off what you say. Primary care physicians also rely on the mother’s anecdotes when treating kids. She wasn’t claiming they had cancer, just that they had allergies which is common amongst kids, and it’s not like you can abuse an epipen like you can narcotics. Shan’ann doctor shopped for two years in order to find a doctor that would diagnose the kids with what she thought they had – asthma. Neither Shan’ann nor her mother had any medical training, Shan’ann worked at a hospital answering phones but that’s about it. Yet she disregarded everything the doctors said until she got one that would give the kids an asthma diagnoses.

    It’s also very telling that no lupus meds were found in the home, she also never specified what kind of lupus she had (was it systemic? Doubtful), she claimed she didn’t need to take the meds for it because thrive helped (my best friends mother has systemic lupus and it’s debilitating, she’d be near death without meds) as well as fibromyalgia which can’t be tested for and many doctors believe it to be nothing more than psychosomatic or malingering. Chrises co-worker who had a few interactions with her and nothing more said that when a commercial for an illness (or an advert for a medication for an illness) came on television, she would always claim her and/or the kids had it. It’s quite obvious Shan’ann wasn’t emotionally or mentally stable and that she had a difficult time dealing with reality.

    I’d be very wary of any diseases or afflictions she claimed she or the children had, she seems to have enjoyed thinking up new ailments for the lot of them in order to garner sympathy. Telling isn’t it, that Chris, the only other adult in the household that could speak for himself (sometimes) didn’t have anything wrong with him? There’s a reason he had those medical records sealed and I largely believe it was to safe face, her face, if that makes sense. We’ve discussed this multiple times in depth here where we included sources, but evidence largely points to Shan’ann creating ailments in her head and saying she or the children had them.

    Like

  28. FYI- ***Sunflower seed are OK for “Tree Nut Allergy”****. All you have to do is Google it.
    https://www.verywellhealth.com/sunflower-pumpkin-sesame-seeds-1324379
    “Nut allergy can be deadly…. Nuts may seem to be harmless little things, but for one in every 100 Americans, eating even one can be life threatening…Nut allergies are fairly common and they also are poorly controlled…”
    *Reference #2 https://www.webmd.com/allergies/news/20010118/dealing-with-nut-allergy-may-take-more-than-just-saying-no#1
    *Reference#3 “Many nut-allergic children lack the nut ( such as pistachio) recognition skills that could protect them from future reactions”
    https://www.webmd.com/parenting/news/20060728/nut-mix-up-common

    Like

  29. Interesting, it’d be good if we could have links to videos/pictures when these things are brought up (from original poster.) Did I miss that?

    Also, I did have similar feelings about her illnesses intuitively from the beginning, but I think people are exaggerating it a bit. I think she seems to have hypochondria and maybe some malingering symptoms but that isn’t the same thing as Munchausen’s/Munchausen’s by Proxy-that’s much more severe. Like Gypsy Rose Blanchard (I realize that’s a severe case.) But if she had Munchausen’s by Proxy, it would be more than “her kids have allergies and asthma and maybe one had a surgery once”. Those mothers are constantly in the hospital. I don’t think that’s what was going on here.

    I also don’t think she’d induce harm to her kids. I think she may try to get attention for illnesses they may or may not have had. Her reaction to Cindy in that situation, even though it was via text, seemed genuine to me. As in she wasn’t thinking “ha, I’m gonna cause a wedge!” She seemed to be genuinely furious instead of trying to appease them

    However, if this video exists with the nut bar, it seems unlikely to me that she was trying to induce illness or was just careless , given her reaction to Cindy. It seems most likely to me that she was malingering or false advertising (unless people are positive what she fed her is tree nuts.) Which would mean she knew she wasn’t allergic to nuts but was still mad that Cindy gave her some,because Cindy was “endangering her life” even though SW would have known that wasn’t actually true, but could have been. As in, she shouldn’t have fed her nuts even if she had doubts with which I agree. It’s a bit crazy but not to a psychotic or extremely malicious degree to me.

    As far as herself, I think more or less the same thing. I just don’t know how much self-awareness she had (was she lying to others or herself or both?) I think a bit of both but I don’t see it as malicious.

    Like

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